Hand enemies feel overpowered (Catacombs area)

[glider521al (Rogue Worlds dev)]

Hi, I've noticed from updates 20a and 16 that you've been increasing much damage hands can deal to the player in game.

When the catacombs were first introduced, they did something like 8 damage, but left the player stunned and vulnerable.

Now in addition to the stunning, they can do upwards of 30 damage per attack (about 15-21 damage from squeezing you and 8-11 damage from throwing). Add to this, that the player can be thrown onto spike traps and stunned next to a group of enemies which can chain attacks. I've been in a couple of situations, where my hp has been reduced from 60 to 0 just from being grabbed by a single hand, near a zombie and near a wall.

Perhaps grip damage could be significantly reduced and instead of allowing the player to melee them while being held, the player could struggle free before being thrown by mashing either the jump or melee keys. Also maybe zombies shouldn't be able to hit you while you're being held.

I appreciate that you can interrupt their attacks now by hitting them with melee weapons and high dexterity, but in there current state (for the reasons mentioned above) they feel like they've been buffed too much.

Thanks for listening :)

[Inkh인수]

Hand enemies are easily avoidable. They are the Maneating plants of the Crypt stages. Maneating plants also do a lot of damage and can be the end of the game.

However, maneating plants almost seem to make up for the lack of traps in the Forest.

Hand enemies are simply a raise in the difficulty of the game .. It's not meant to be a walk in the park. A barely well timed jump avoids their attack easily.

Not Overpowered.

[glider521al (Rogue Worlds dev)]

Thanks for your reply :)

I disagree though, man eating plants are relatively easy to avoid (due to being rooted to one location), and there are few of them (+ they can be countered by poison resist if you can find equipment with that trait).
Hands are almost as common as zombies are are crawling all over the area.


If I was asking for a "walk in the park" I wouldn't be playing roguelikes :) (and I've finished several platformer variants including Spelunky/TowerClimb/Catacomb Kids alpha and an earlier version of Vagante). I think there's a difference between balance that can be improved (i.e. being instantly killed by a common enemy) and strategic difficulty (e.g. how do I manipulate a dangerous situtation to my advantage).

Don't get me wrong, I <3 the game, I just think this is an area that can benefit from balance adjustments.

[Inkh인수]

You don't disagree. I never said the plants were hard to avoid.

I'm saying they're both easy to avoid.

Pay attention. And try not to use incendiary statements that could insult one's intelligence. Dweeb.

My suggestion is to not walk into the middle of a bunch of hands. They have a pattern, use that pattern like you would in any other roguelike you've finished like the roguelike-expert you claim to be.

Maneating plants are stationary? That's an advantage. You can eject the scenario at anytime.
Hands are not stationary .. That's an advantage. They can be pulled from the herd.

I'm glad you <3 the game. If you're a rogue-like expert then this is child's play not worth your attention.

[glider521al (Rogue Worlds dev)]

I never claimed to be an expert, just that I'm into the genre, nor did I say the game was easy.
The difference in opinion was regard to the hands.

With respect sir I'm not the one launching attacks on a personal level, you are. I was not trying to insult your intellegence either, I was merely trying to be polite as I believe there's no need for virtriol in a discussion. I am sorry if you found one of my comments insulting (I haven't changed the original post aside from fixing a spelling mistake in the games in brackets), so let me know what you found offensive.

The only reason I mentioned the other games is because the words:

Originally posted by succinkhtStatement:

It's not meant to be a walk in the park.

implied lacking time spent with the genre on my end.

Also I don't jump straight into a group of hands, but sometimes it's possible to be ambushed by a group of them through the fog of war.

Originally posted by succinkhtStatement:

Pay attention. And try not to use incendiary statements that could insult one's intelligence. Dweeb.

Seriously? wow, I'm not sure if you're trolling or are just having a bad day.

I acknowledge you have much more experience with this game then I have, but there is no need to be arrogant about it.

Have a good day and thankyou for the tips.

P.s. still interested in further discussion on this issue.

[Inkh인수]

Use walk.

It'll slow clearing the fog and if you see a mob that notices you, run back to a safe place to kill it individually.

There are items that circumvent the need to do this, but for no-equipment no-level runs all you need to do is take your time and do things slowly.

You've got infinite time, it's not a race. There are no ambushes you can't avoid by walking in territory you have already seen and uncovering new territory at a slow pace.

For a challenge, it's still possible to run straight into the darkness once you understand the AI pattern. It is possible to be in a room full of hands and cryptwalkers like you're taking the dog out for a walk.

But just take things slower, that is a great majority of strategies.

[glider521al (Rogue Worlds dev)]

Thankyou, those points of advice are very useful :).

Will definitely try and keep those tips in mind next time I reach the Catacombs. I've found that life steal/high dexterity & double jump; speed up the process a bit (though those are quite rare, and I'm not at the level where I can complete those levels without specialized equipment and alot of things going right).

[Inkh인수]

I don't like giving advice because I don't like taking away the challenge/enjoyment of learning the mechanics of the game.

Thank you for the opportunity to share.

[megami_twist]

The plants are piss easy, you bait the head and just murder the base.
The hands are troublesome, I agree. Last night I got trapped by two hands following me (tring to kill one and another came along)and 3 ahead of me out of the fog. I used my teleport scrolls (3) and just kept ending up in another mufti hand path then got thrown on spikes (the wooden ones) lol.

Sometimes you just have really bad luck, sometimes it happens more than often.
I can't even count how many times a golem just out of fog sight has dropped down on me in the forest dealing 999 with no time to respond. If I have a magic mapping I use it in the forest for sure.

TIP:
Also save your teleport scrolls for the catacombs, You can use them while you are in the hands grip or in a plants mouth, but since plants are easy I save them for the catacombs. It might be helpful for you.

[Denizen of the Deep]

Originally posted by succinkhtStatement:

You don't disagree. I never said the plants were hard to avoid.

I'm saying they're both easy to avoid.

Pay attention. And try not to use incendiary statements that could insult one's intelligence. Dweeb.

My suggestion is to not walk into the middle of a bunch of hands. They have a pattern, use that pattern like you would in any other roguelike you've finished like the roguelike-expert you claim to be.

Maneating plants are stationary? That's an advantage. You can eject the scenario at anytime.
Hands are not stationary .. That's an advantage. They can be pulled from the herd.

I'm glad you <3 the game. If you're a rogue-like expert then this is child's play not worth your attention.

"Dweeb"...?

[Denizen of the Deep]

I think the hands are too tough too. I like how they behave, so I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to just make them smaller enemies. I feel like if I could jump over them in tight spaces more I could navigate their difficulty better.

[Denizen of the Deep]

Originally posted by josh:

I think the hands are too tough too. I like how they behave, so I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to just make them smaller enemies. I feel like if I could jump over them in tight spaces more I could navigate their difficulty better.

OK, I've played A LOT more against the hands, and I think they are simply too fast... They shouldn't change size, just slow down. When there is one hand and I’m not stuck in a small corridor, I'm ok, but two or more at the same time seems to make it almost impossible to avoid getting grabbed. I can do alright if I have the Rouge's shadow ability working and/or a frost nova spell, but short of those (or having some killer gear and speed/jump stats), I'm usually dead quick fighting more than one hand. I really don't like the hands... for whatever that's worth.... :/

[glider521al (Rogue Worlds dev)]

My total playtime for Vagante (since buying it) is over 100 hours now, and have finally got past stage 3 of the updated catacombs, but I still feel the hands are a bit overbuffed compared to everything else in that area (except maybe that boss that shoots spike balls at you - [whatever its name is]).

Successfully completing the new catacombs involved a ridiculous amount of luck and equipment and stat based factors in my favour (i.e. not so much skill on my end) including:
- Spike Protection (for when hands throw you onto spikes)
- Life Steal Equipment
- High Dexterity (for drawing weapons quickly)
- Double jump boots
- Moderate Defense
- Using an Exploit with dragon ("the bloody") shrines (getting high stats from them by using poison resist+3 and life steal to turn plants into healing stations)
- Taking things very slowly at the catacombs area and luring the hands out one at a time (Ring of seltioc helps alot to for seeing all enemies, though I didn't find it until towards the end of the run).

Originally posted by josh:

OK, I've played A LOT more against the hands, and I think they are simply too fast... They shouldn't change size, just slow down. When there is one hand and I’m not stuck in a small corridor, I'm ok, but two or more at the same time seems to make it almost impossible to avoid getting grabbed.

I agree that they're problematic in groups (though 1 vs 1 they're somewhat manageable) especially as other enemies can still hit you while you're being held. The attacks could be telegraphed a fraction of a second longer, as you can't always dodge if you're in the middle of an attack animation.

Originally posted by megami_twist:

The hands are troublesome, I agree. Last night I got trapped by two hands following me (tring to kill one and another came along)and 3 ahead of me out of the fog. I used my teleport scrolls (3) and just kept ending up in another mufti hand path then got thrown on spikes (the wooden ones) lol.

Sometimes you just have really bad luck, sometimes it happens more than often.
I can't even count how many times a golem just out of fog sight has dropped down on me in the forest dealing 999 with no time to respond. If I have a magic mapping I use it in the forest for sure.

TIP:
Also save your teleport scrolls for the catacombs, You can use them while you are in the hands grip or in a plants mouth, but since plants are easy I save them for the catacombs. It might be helpful for you.

Thanks for the tip, I don't usually use the teleport scrolls much (usually discarding them in favour of other pieces of equipment), though I'm not sure I'd be able to use them quickly enough when gripped by hands.

[libertea]

Originally posted by 인수석:

Pay attention. And try not to use incendiary statements that could insult one's intelligence. Dweeb.

lmao what the ♥♥♥♥ did i just read

[bael]

Originally posted by splunk:

[quote=인수석;598198356191487472
lmao what the ♥♥♥♥ did i just read

This thread is over three years old but yeah I agree.

[libertea]

Originally posted by ddavidd:

Originally posted by splunk:

This thread is over three years old but yeah I agree.

ya i usually dont revive dead threads but that was so funny i spat out my soda