Is the Ascetic background too strong?

[Tahu!]

(Explanation how Ascetic works, as a refresher)
Ascetic is a starting background, unlocked simply by playing the game, as it is unlocked by the progression system of gaining experience when you complete a run, successful or not.

The Ascetic background requires you to reach the next bonfire without ever equipping any items beyond what you start with, and as a reward you gain a permanent +1 to 3 in all five base stats (strength, dexterity, vitality, intelligence, luck). This does not prevent using items such as scrolls, tomes, food, or potions.

Breaking the vow at any point, by equipping any item, reduces your gained stats by half, but by the time you might consider equipping items (such as spike protection to do the catacombs without clenching your butt hole), you've gained an insane amount of base stats that breaking the vow won't matter.

- - -

So, a lot of starting stats for the game feel like they can't compare to Ascetic. Getting a +1 to +3 in all five base stats just for completing a level is insane. That's increased crit, dodge, chance to find better items(useful later, IF you wanted to pursue it), health, damage of any type, and attack/cast speed. Finishing the first floor without equipping anything (besides what you start with) is already better than virtually any upgrade, if you can withstand not having utilities like boulder protection, spike protection, double jump etc.

You can complete the first three levels and just straight up get a +1 in all stats, then start equipping things, but it snowballs so hard and so early that there's not much stopping you when a lot of enemies by the catacombs can have their skeleton removed with a zap or a slap.

Am I missing something here? Why would I ever pick +2 in any base stat, or especially negative stats when I can get a +1-3 in every stat per floor. You're guaranteed to get +10 health every bonfire. You don't even need to kill the boss to get the stat up.

My suggestion; At the very least make the requirement be to kill the boss, since you don't really need boss chests except for potions (very optional), unless you want to trade weapons with Chaos Cauldron in hopes of getting a book, scroll, or portion. I feel like it would feel more rewarding and special to grow stronger for killing a boss.

I don't think this late into release balance is much of a concern, beyond improving certain skills that simply aren't doing too hot, or adding small QoL changes (please make dog jump higher when he needs to reach a higher platform, he keeps making short jumps and I miss him).

[claiminglight]

Balance shouldn't ever be left behind, late or no. Though you might add that elemental protections are also forfeit- and that's the biggest loss, I'd say.

[Tahu!]

Originally posted by claiminglight:

Balance shouldn't ever be left behind, late or no. Though you might add that elemental protections are also forfeit- and that's the biggest loss, I'd say.

Ahh, you make a fair point since the resistance could help for later game to get full immunity to freezing and shock to prevent being frozen and stunned.

But by the time you get to a point where resistances are particularly useful (post catacombs) you're 9 levels in, and can drop your ascetic and equip the equipment you're carrying safely and still have a +4 in all stats bare minimum which is huge.

[Hoolny]

Tahu in a run with out ascetic you will always end up being stronger and with more abilities like wall phasing triple jump etc also with ascetic you can not have death protection ascetic just ends up being stronger in multiplayer because you don't have to share items with people

[Tahu!]

Originally posted by Seth:

Tahu in a run with out ascetic you will always end up being stronger and with more abilities like wall phasing triple jump etc also with ascetic you can not have death protection ascetic just ends up being stronger in multiplayer because you don't have to share items with people

My argument was that by the time equipment abilities become extremely important, you can just drop ascetic and equip gear you've been picking up and still retain an immense amount of stats. In comparison to backgrounds that give +2 to a stat, the ascetic background beats them all after the first level. There's very little need for special equipment in the first six levels, and then catacombs a lot of people might prefer to equip death or spike protection.

There's no period of time where Ascetic isn't good and it's a straight upgrade over a lot of backgrounds.

[Dark Meta Knight]

Plus 1 to 3!? Geez, I thought it was just 1...That's crazy.

I feel like this background is way too strong, yes.

+ Way more stats than equipment will ever give, just for progressing. (Guaranteed)
+ Ends up with pretty much the power of Death's Acolyte but with more, not less HP. Wish I was exaggerating with that. The true final boss final phase died before he could move just from animal ability spam with enchants. 26 STR. (Multiplayer but still, Ascetic Animal Wildling + A normal Enchant Mage team of 2.)
+ Good for any class, and pretty much any build that doesn't require equipment passives.

- No enhancements like spike or boulder immunity, wall phasing, projectile reflect etc.
- Not that strong super early game, like floor 3...?
- No elemental resistance at all, but I don't think any background grants that anyway?

...No other real drawbacks I can think of honestly. Even some listed are a bit of a stretch.

Also in multiplayer it seems to be even more busted than in solo. Equipping in the campsite before the final battle is allowed, with no reduction to stats or HP. Not sure if this is a general bug or multiplayer only, but it doesn't seem intentional.

A couple of suggestions:
1. Lower the bonus to 1 each floor which is already plenty strong. Maybe try 1 to 2 at first if the next suggestion is implemented too?

2. As a drawback, straight up prevent the player from equipping anything besides a weapon. Scrap the whole "breaking vow" thing as it's fundamentally busted.

I'd definitely prefer a nerf rather than straight replacement/removal, because I really like the idea of a background that pays big late-game for a severe penalty early to mid-game.

[Hoolny]

when you wan't your suggestions to be read by the devs i recommend to join vagante development is the dev server if you posts your ideas on feedback and suggestions they have a higher chance of being read by the devs https://discord.gg/SBRaXru

[Hoolny]

i personally think that breaking ascetic vow should have all your stats half and not just the stats that you gained from ascetic but that would just be a side nerf it is way to strong

[Tahu!]

Originally posted by Seth:

when you wan't your suggestions to be read by the devs i recommend to join vagante development is the dev server if you posts your ideas on feedback and suggestions they have a higher chance of being read by the devs https://discord.gg/SBRaXru

Honestly when I wrote this, I figured it was more or less just whispers on the wind. I didn't think Vagante was even getting anymore updates, especially a pass at balance. Maybe I'll bring it up in their discord, if it hasn't been covered already.

[Hoolny]

vagante is still being updated it every 8 months BUT only if there is a red moon in a friday 27