Falling blocks and spikes

[jes490]

Hi guys! I have a question.
Why falling blocks and spikes are totally instant death? Is there any feature in the game that uses such a mechanic? It's just seems a little confusing. All your playthrough may be thrown away by a especially stealthy rock or unlucky fall, regardless in what state you are in now or what you already done. Why dosen't give it a fixed damage or smth similar, that doesn't kill you right away? =D Cause those blocks and spikes are definitly stands out from the rest part of the game, in my opinion. Are you planning to do something about that or it's okay for you now?

BTW, your game are great! Thanks!

[Lefty_Spurlock]

Thank you

One way of looking at it, is that they force the player to pay more attention to their environment and the game itself just by their presence, which lends itself to learning and getting better at the game. Something we picked up from games like Spelunky and Dark Souls. While a lot of similar games don't feature insta kills in this way, we wanted the game to be challenging but fair, where every design decision can be easily prevented as the player learns about the world. Also they make for funny deaths : P

[Carlz0r]

Spelunky spikes work the same way.. fall on them, you're dead, but you can walk through them and be unharmed.

I haven't played the Steam version yet, but in the Alpha, if you have the skill that prevents falling damage, you'll fall more slowly, and the spikes don't seem to affect you.. similar to using the cape in Spelunky.

[Asorad]

There is a helmet efect that prevents falling rocks kills. Also an armor effect, an boot effect and a potion effect that prevents spike kills. And they're not really hard to see o.o

[jes490]

Originally posted by Carlz0r:

Originally posted by Zhadius:

Yeah, I know about those effects and items, thanks guys. Actually, I rarely die from such things, but nonetheless... ))

Originally posted by Mishapsi:

One way of looking at it, is that they force the player to pay more attention to their environment and the game itself just by their presence, which lends itself to learning and getting better at the game. Something we picked up from games like Spelunky and Dark Souls. While a lot of similar games don't feature insta kills in this way, we wanted the game to be challenging but fair, where every design decision can be easily prevented as the player learns about the world. Also they make for funny deaths : P

If we talk about Dark Souls, their traps although are dangerous and in most cases lethal, it's still non instant death. Player has a chance to survive if he plays well (that is, saved a lot of health or is strong enough). So, there's always a chance to survive, albeit small. But yours spikes and blocks are always kill the player if he is unlucky enough, there's no chance and no save )) A little unfair, I think. Just saying. Who knows, maybe you'll give it a thought ))

In any case, good luck with development, guys!

[Carlz0r]

Originally posted by jes490:

So, there's always a chance to survive, albeit small. But yours spikes and blocks are always kill the player if he is unlucky enough, there's no chance and no save )) A little unfair, I think. Just saying. Who knows, maybe you'll give it a thought ))

The spikes a plainly visible and avoidable. The falling rocks have pressure plates that are visible, and there are numerous ways to either avoid them or set them off safely.,,, AND there are effects that make yourself less vulnerable to these traps, should you happen to get careless..

The only difference I see is that in Vagante there are more ways of seeing something before it happens.. but still ways to avoid dieing if you don't. Plus, enemies set off the arrow traps, fall into spikes, and get crushed by boulders all the time, so it helps you out not only by eliminating an enemy, but also sometimes setting off the trap before it goes off on you. Also compare the damage of an arrow trap in this, VS. one in a game that's actually similar to this one, Spelunky.

In general, Vagante is actually easier. 9 times out of 10, when I die, it's an enemy.. usually a boss.. and that's the way it should be. Take it slow, take it easy.. If you're just a little bit careful,you'll never die to a trap.

[Chowen]

My problem with the spikes, and sometimes pressure plates, is that they are NOT always plainly visible. If something like a chest or, what just happened to me, the little fairy's cage is on the same spot, the spikes can be difficult to notice. This brings an abrupt and disappointing end to a run.
If they simply dealt large amounts of damage, the game could remain mostly unchanged, except you may not be instantly killed if you are doing really well.

[funkel]

I agree with Chowen. It would be nice if stationary objects/monsters capable of blocking the vision of spikes would not spawn on top of them. Granted, these situations do lead to funny deaths!

I recall one knight of mine who died prematurely by trying to use the jump+sword attack down on the dragon boss, who was comfortably lying on spikes. I somehow missed the attack and landed on top of the spikes. Ouch.

[glider521al (Rogue Worlds dev)]

Originally posted by jes490:

Hi guys! I have a question.
Why falling blocks and spikes are totally instant death? Is there any feature in the game that uses such a mechanic?

There are quite a few other scenarios that will take you from high health to instant death:

• Bark giants and the elite boss version will instant kill you if they land on you if you're not careful (or simply extremely unlucky with one hiding above outside your f.o.v. offscreen). Thankfully they move slowly/have limited jump height (though you might want to climb for dear life, when the boss starts rolling).
  
• Getting swallowed by a man trap without any poison resist is certain death even with 100 health, due to the high poison damage they inflict. You can usually avoid these, but sometimes they can ambush you through the fog of war.
  
• Teleport and blink spells can kill you instantly if you warp into a wall (Like Spelunky's teleportation device).
  
• The portal spell has the same effect as the above without full concentration.
  
• Occasionally you will be unlucky the first time you use an unidentified teleport scroll and be trapped inside gaps in the terrain/instant death situtations. Though misfortune is much less likely to happen with them if you clear the level of traps and enemies first.
  
• If chest plates have the mortality trait, your hp is reduced to 1, and the next hit will kill you (though you can simply take this off if it's not cursed).
  
• Leaving the boundaries of the level for any reason (e.g. phase through floor/wall enchants or climbing outside the forest) will instant kill you.

Their are a few mechanics to bring you back to life. Though be advised that you respawn exactly where you die with no temporary immunity. I found this out the hard way when I accidently got cornered and beaten up by 4 bark giants :):
http://i.imgur.com/22egfUf.png

To recover from death:

• Find and wear a kerchief of death protection (though these are extremely rare).
  
• The reincarnation perk for the knight brings you back with half max hp/mp (though this also halves all related upgrades as well)

Originally posted by Chowen:

If they simply dealt large amounts of damage, the game could remain mostly unchanged, except you may not be instantly killed if you are doing really well.

The instant death mechanic does sometimes lead to comical demises:
e.g. being turned into a human lollipop by a giant man eater plant/teleporting out of the shopkeepers storage room, a few pixels above a spikes tile.
I was never really a fan of instant death scenarios (even though they're uncommon), given the pace is slower and the levels larger then something like Spelunky/Towerclimb and most enemies/hazards only siphon parts of your health. I also prefer that they'd just deal alot of regular damage to (though that's a matter of personal preference).

[KnightShade]

Not a fan of these because of their ease of concealment. It's always a matter of not seeing them due to the intense darkness of the first few stages. There should be a way to brighten the stage (at least around the active character) to compensate for this if these are left in as instakills. Also, there's a (mini?) boss (bandit king?) that can throw you on them, I was wearing spikebreaker armor at the time, but if I wasn't, it would have been instant death several times over, since there seems to be no way to predict or dodge his grab.

[Judge Cudge]

If there ever exists the chance that you could instantaneously die for something that you honestly couldn't have avoided, then its something that shouldn't be in a roguelike. That being said, the devs were kind enough to give enchantments that nullify spikes entirely, so at least actual mitigation exists.

[v]

I don't mind the spikes or boulders, but sometimes I'll teleport into a place where I get stuck or I can't advance the level because I can't make a jump because it is too high. At that point, there is literally nothing to do.

[^_^]

I feel like some work towards their spawn locations (specifially the falling rock) is in order, i had just reached cave 3 and there was a ledge to my left i jumped to safely. After looting the chest the only way down was to jump back to the location with the door, Suffice it to say the door had a rock trap on the same square, which was rather invisible because of the door being there. I was very frustrated by this poor spawning of the trap.

I personally like the traps being instant death. It addes a dramatic feeling to every jump and move not carefully made, as a Roguelike should feel. I just think its a tad unfair for it to spawn with you directly under the door when you change floors.

[Xaos Wolf]

I'm all for rock traps being intant death, as there are plenty of countermeasures.

Twice now I've had a boulder fall on my head when the triggers are 3-4 spaces away, and no one is on them. The first time it happened, it killed me and a bandit as two fell from the ceiling 2 blocks to the side of the triggered trap, ended up looking like this (brackets being the starting door) with me under the right one and the bandit under the left.

T__B__[ ]__B__T

If we have to watch out for traps, at least make damn sure the triggers you're looking for correlate to where the trap actually is.

Spikes I haven't had any problems with.

[Dai'Kahn]

I love the fact of instadeath from these and other things

[Judge Cudge]

I agree entirely with glider. I don't think instadeath belongs in this game, the game has a good bit of challenge already, if spikes and blocks merely harmed you excessively then it would make a lot more sense in the context of how the rest of the mechanics work. This game isn't spelunky, you have a lot more effort and time invested in each character you make. And you are encouraged and rewarded for exploring and pacing yourself. Unless there is someway to guarentee immunity to insta kills, then the chance exists that you will unfairly lose a good run. This should never be the case is a roguelike game. Mistakes should be punished, but the location of a good deal of the insta death traps, of which there are ridiculous amount, allows for them to kill you unavoidably, and this has led to a good portion of my deaths. Outside of my unlucky runs being purposefully cut short, I have yet to find the same humor in instantly dying from a rock the same way I would in spelunky. Its more along the lines of having an rpg account deleted than it is a comical end to an adventure. Outside of multiplayer mode, I really think instantaneous death should be reworked.