Reloaders vs Gathering Posts

[jfisch19]

I've been watching some of the Last Autumn videos and it seems the new economy comes down to whether reloaders are more or less efficient than gathering posts.

I don't have specific numbers but here is the breakdown.

I determine cost in Logistic points, since it is the limiting factor in the new economy.

Gathering Post:
Cost: 20 logistic points (it takes 10 workers to run a GP and each worker is 2 LP)

Pros: Available from the start
Does not cost steam cores
Can gather from multiple resource stacks at a dock
Can be fully upgraded at tech level 2

Cons: Does not gather resources as fast as reloader
10 workers per GP means more mouths to feed than reloader


Reloader:
Cost: 40-60-80LP depending on which you build (10 workers is 20LP, each steam core costs another 20LP)

Pros: Gathers resources very quickly (from only one stack however)
Takes fewer workers than GP to collect same resources

Cons: Costs steam cores
Does not reach full potential until tech level 5


The one piece of information I don't have is if the improved and advanced docks deposit all of their output into one stack if the other stacks are maxed-out, or if each stack only receives a set amount of resources, and if a stack is maxed-out, the resources going to it are lost.

If all of the resources can go to one stack, than I would say that reloaders have a good advantage over gathering posts. A single advanced reloader can manage a dock quite well and will gather a lot more resources than 4 GPs and does so with only 10 workers.

However, if a dock spreads the resources out, and does not put them in one stack if the other stacks are maxed, then GPs have a big advantage over reloaders. You would need 3 reloaders per advanced dock to keep from wasting resources. That's equal to 6 GPs and I think 6 GPs is fairly close to 3 reloaders in resource collection.

Regardless, it's not as cut-and-dried as you might think. GPs give reloaders a run for their money

[Bobywan]

DLC isn't even out yet... wait and see to determine which is better.
But if you get the DLC and play with the old buildings, what the point really...

[Cougarific]

Originally posted by jfisch19:

Cons:
Does not reach full potential until tech level 5

Isn't this a pretty massive Con tho?

I've only played for a few hours so far but I was gathering faster with one basic Gathering Post than I am with a Reloader upgraded one time.

Lesson learned I guess - next time I'll stick with Gathering Posts until I've fully researched more (if not all) the Reloader upgrades.

[amordron]

Conclusion at the bottem.

docks always spread the piles into even piles. It doesn't matter how full a given pile is the load always is split even if one pile is full and one is empty the amount meant for the full pile will be lost to boot.

Better docks only increase the amount of piles by one.

Gathering posts gather from all piles at the same speed if one pile you gather at full rate if 3 piles you gather each at 1/3 rate but for the same total rate. This is a factor.

You did not include the RATE of gather of each only the cost of a single one this is not good as GP gather slower per one.

small note gathering posts need roads reloaders do not so small saving on setup costs.

Some numbers (all numbers taken from steal the ratio is the same for all resources at max workers):

Basic dock: 9/hour
Basic +1: 9.9/hour
Upgraded dock 18/hour
Upgraded dock +1: 19.8/hour (9.9 per pile)
Advanced dock 27/hour
Adv dock +1: 29.7/hour (9.9 per pile)

Reloader: 5.8/hour
Reloaded +1: 6.3/hour
steam reload: 9.3/hour
steam reload +1 : 10.2/hour
adv reload: 13.8/hour
adv reload +1: 15.18/hour

GP : 3/hour
GP +1: 3.3/hour
Gp +2: 3.6/hour



IT takes 3 gathering posts to counter a basic dock pre upgrades.
It takes one reloader to counter a basic dock with only 6 workers in it This changes your math as now the reloader is saving you 4 workers that your math did not show. This is pre upgrades. With upgrades to dock reload speed or upgrades this again changes.

This means for a basic dock you need a total of 60 gp for gathering posts 3 of them at 20 gp each to fully gather resources from a dock BUT you get 36% more resources due to dock being fully staffed.

Re loader only needs 36 lp vs 60 but gets 36% less resources than GP max due to having a slower max speed pre upgrades BUT if using extended shifts on only the reloader NOT the dock you get the same resources. The same can be done on the dock thou to still get 36% more BUT at the cost of 3x more discontent. Discontent is massive in this mode and quite hard to keep down so this high amount more really hurts as this on 3 docks is a massive increase to strike chance.


For higher levels

At the steam level and above reloaders are faster than the pile builds at a equal level dock. With the +1 steam reloader able to keep up with adv docks.

Advanced reloaders are to fast for even advanced docks. Just steam with +1 is all you ever need even basic reloaders already can handle 60% of a advanced docks load.

That being said advanced reloaders will keep up with a spilt shift dock allowing you to have the dock spilt shifted and the reloaders not for max gains at a low discontent.

An advanced dock produces 3 times the resources on 3 piles. Basic gathering posts need 3x posts to counter a basic one or 9 posts to counter a single dock. At 20 points each this is 180 lp. Thou with upgrades this is +20% faster GP so only need 144 lp. Hard to even fit that in range of a docks as that’s 10 gps.

Reloaders on the other hand fully counter a advanced dock when upgraded to the steam level. This needs 6 cores at 20 lp each or 120 lp + the 60 for workers for 180 lp and less food while producing less discontent to boot. If using spilt shifts OR exteneded by using it ONLY on the reloader and NOT the dock reloaders can handle a advanced dock to themselves at a discountent cost. Alt if using reloaders just place 6 workers in the dock to save 4 workers when not wanting the discontent.

Steam level reloaders vs gp on a upgrades dock is a lp cost diff of 110 for gp and 120 for reloaders.


Two shifts or extended shift.

Taking the above numbers of 144 lp for a Max gathering post setup vs 180 lp for a Max reloader setup with reloaders. Now to increase there shift with eg two shifts you increase both to gain 240 percent more resources in a days but the gathering posts will produce 10 buildings of dicontent vs 4. 150 percent more discontent for the same resources is not a small number. If discontent is a issue this vary much can be a large factor.


Interesting thou taking a fully uped gp 3.6 per hour and making it have two shifts over a day is 8.6 per hour avg. to counter a adv doc fully uped 29.7 would only need 3.5 gps. This is with the dock not on two shift which is not a bad amount of discontent or lp at only 100 lp for the workers.





Conclusion:


So at first yes using GP is a good way to start. But room will quickly become a factor trying to fit 9 around a dock while needing a ton more food to match them and creating significantly more discontent when you need more resources via longer shifts.

That being said GPs have the advantage of being able to move the workers to help out other areas.

Gps do give a better return per lp if discontent and food is a non issue.




I would say the "best" way is to set up reloaders right away and only upgrade the dock. Use extended or spilt shifts on the reloader as the discontent esp early is manageable. Later game when more cores and discontent becomes a issue upgrade them to steam you will need to unlock steam before hand thou to get the +1 to reloaders to make them faster than a dock with exteneded shifts with spilt shifts thou there faster just as reloaders. Once at the steam level can make it them and the dock spilt. At the advanced level make the dock exteneded and not the reloaders for max gains.

Gathering posts paired with two shifts are a possible end game option but I have yet to try them in high diffs to see if the food and discontent is worth it.

[MozarteanChaos]

i've been fine with reloaders for the most part. started out with a couple of GPs but it's (apparently) faster and more labour efficient to slap down a reloader once they're available

[amordron]

I updated my above post with numbers testing all levels of both and GP are jsut not worth it outside of the vary early game.

[snuggleform]

What do you mean the ratio is the same for all resources amordron, it's clearly not.

I had an upgraded dock bringing in something like 9.7 steel an hour and the steam reload was 9.3 / hour as you said, but looking at coal the dock was bringing in 30 coal / hour and the steam reload was sucking it up at 40 coal/ hour. How is that ratio the same? One ratio is above one, the other is below one.

Also, a better conclusion would take into account that you need to save cores for machine shop/ventliation shaft, you can't just spend your first 3 cores on reloaders as your post suggests.

Also one intersrting thing to note is that it's better to requisition wood than it is to requisition coal, provided that you invest into charcoal kilns. Pulling in 30 coal / hour is much worse than the 20 wood / hour (steam reloader) considering you can convert 70 wood into 210 coal with the kiln.

[amordron]

Originally posted by snuggleform:

What do you mean the ratio is the same for all resources amordron, it's clearly not.

I had an upgraded dock bringing in something like 9.7 steel an hour and the steam reload was 9.3 / hour as you said, but looking at coal the dock was bringing in 30 coal / hour and the steam reload was sucking it up at 40 coal/ hour. How is that ratio the same? One ratio is above one, the other is below one.

Also, a better conclusion would take into account that you need to save cores for machine shop/ventliation shaft, you can't just spend your first 3 cores on reloaders as your post suggests.

Also one intersrting thing to note is that it's better to requisition wood than it is to requisition coal, provided that you invest into charcoal kilns. Pulling in 30 coal / hour is much worse than the 20 wood / hour (steam reloader) considering you can convert 70 wood into 210 coal with the kiln.

I have never used a reloader for coal so that’s vary well possible looking at both wood and steel the ratio was the same when pulling all numbers I had two docks steel two wood one with gp one with relaoders each. Always have used kilns and not for the reason you mentioned but just since always was spare wood and the time wasted swaping a dock from one resource to another was not worth.


You most def can use all 3 steam cores on reloaders right of and is something I have done on extreme to quite good effect. To be exact my first 4 is 2 per dock.

There is no need for vents right away, or even to be doing much to the gen right away. By the time you need one you are able to get another core. On extreme I dint need to have the vent down till my 5th core with ease while staying ahead on gen building speed by about a day and later getting 4 days ahead by the end of the 2nd stage.

[snuggleform]

Yea I was pretty certain you had leaped to conclusions looking at only steel/wood.

I personally spend 1 core on reloading station fairly early on steel because that's a huge roadblock. I don't have the manpower (or, I choose to spend it elsewhere to be more accurate) to be able to maintain 3 docks with 3 reloaders first thing. I tend to requisition my first core after the shaft is done, but maybe you choose to requisition them earlier or you rely on creve-nege scouting?

[Cougarific]

Being a math dunce I have trouble following amordron's calculations but so far it seems like getting 5 units/hour from a basic Reloader is much less than the 7.2 units/hour from *one* Gathering Post. Add another and that's 14+ units/hour.

How many Reloader upgrades does it take before you're seeing a greater units-per-hour intake than the GPs?

I've only made it to one upgrade so far but even then it wasn't nearly as fast as only *one* GP.

Originally posted by snuggleform:

or you rely on creve-nege scouting?

This is how I've been doing it - having scouted the map thoroughly on my first playthrough (got Fired for missing deadlines) I know where to send my guys for a nice leg-up on the advanced supplies.

[snuggleform]

Sometimes amordron's preesntation is lacking but he did mention that one gp gives 3 (three) steel per hour, and a reloader is 5.8 / hour. A reloader > GP, you probably misread the 7.2 from a gathering post that is a gross overestimation.

[amordron]

Originally posted by Cougarific:

Being a math dunce I have trouble following amordron's calculations but so far it seems like getting 5 units/hour from a basic Reloader is much less than the 7.2 units/hour from *one* Gathering Post. Add another and that's 14+ units/hour.

How many Reloader upgrades does it take before you're seeing a greater units-per-hour intake than the GPs?

I've only made it to one upgrade so far but even then it wasn't nearly as fast as only *one* GP.

Originally posted by snuggleform:

or you rely on creve-nege scouting?

This is how I've been doing it - having scouted the map thoroughly on my first playthrough (got Fired for missing deadlines) I know where to send my guys for a nice leg-up on the advanced supplies.

I have to ask are you seeing 3.6 per hour on the gathering post (look at a steel one) than going there is two piles so double that thinking the number is a per pile number?

If so that’s not how it works the number shown on the gathering post is the rate you are getting total already spitting it between piles.

Your max rate dose not go up if there is more piles as the gathering post will spilt workers between them. So you have the same total rate with two piles as one so each pile goes down half as fast.


To answer the question thou at the basic level no upgrades 3 gp plus dock is 36 percent more resources per day than reloader dock but the reloader dock is 16 workers only need 6 in dock to counter a reloader so 40 workers vs 16 as such 250 percent the labor to get that 36 percent more resources. By lp cost the gathering post is 150 percent of the reloaders lp cost for that 36 percent more resources. So your spending more lp per resource even at the basic level for docks and gathering post vs just using reloaders.




I did see one error in my above math thou that I have updated that dose change the late game conclusion significantly. Advanced docks I org times 3 times pile size and 3 times piles when doing the gp math. So was 9 times gps needed as larger docks don’t change pile size only pile amount unlike the load screen tips claim that was wrong.

This changes the lp costs for gathering posts to be better in the late game but have a higher discontent cost to add extra shifts to them and extra shifts are well worth it as they are a large increase, on top of needing a large bit more food for those workers.

This makes it more of a toss up. I can see the extra food be possible as I dint have much food issues on extreme and would save tech time going to have to try a build with gps only and see how it feels. The discontent thou would be quite a large amount.

[Serpent]

to be clear i have tested if your gp cover only 1 pile it maybe slower but if it cover 2 pile it's faster than reloading station.
the problem here is in early game worker is essential for progress and i want all the worker i can have but if i want to use reloading station i have to spend it on core plus 10 worker
and for me food is not that hard to get. extended shift on fishing is more than enough to feed people in my game.
since you can maintain 1 outpost all the way till you finish building.