The steel bottleneck

[Panfilo]

Compared to every other resource type, steel only has one family of buildings, and they fall under the category of 'must build in fixed and finite locations'. This puts a relatively low cap on how much steel you can potentially gather.

Even if you lack steam cores, you can just build as many hunter huts/steam Thumpers+gathering posts as manpower allows. The game even gives you the flexibility to convert wood into coal. But steel is an annoying bottleneck that doesn't have an alternate way of scaling up. Here's an idea:

Scrapyard - Recovers waste scrap into additional steel. Similar in function to the Coal Thumper, but balanced by having an 'aura' that needs it to be adjacent to other work buildings (gathering posts don't count) and leaving small steel piles at a rate proportional to buildings in the radius. This is a T3 research unlock that will need a lot more manpower for a given amount of steel and scales its steel generation by the number of nearby work buildings. Because of how it works you need to place it intelligently but it will at least give you a source of additional steel without steam cores if you're falling behind.

[Lurcolm]

Yeah, this actually hit me recently in the Ark scenario. One of the things there, not saying cuz I don't want to ruin it for anyone who hasn't tried it, needs a lot of steel. Wood was incredibly easy to source, but I kept running out of steel due to me rushing to get everything sorted out. Thus, I couldn't do the thing I needed to do

[Bobywan]

I don't like it, it would break the game.
You just have to deal with the bottleneck by researching steel tech and using automatons on steel.

[Lurcolm]

Originally posted by Bobywan:

I don't like it, it would break the game.
You just have to deal with the bottleneck by researching steel tech and using automatons on steel.

I had two steelworks working with automatons. I went as far as I could in research, but combined they couldn't even manage a tenth of the power of my wood production. I couldn't build more steelworks, since there wasn't any other place to build it. I had those two steelworks for production and that's it.

[Panfilo]

Originally posted by Bobywan:

I don't like it, it would break the game.
You just have to deal with the bottleneck by researching steel tech and using automatons on steel.

Steel is the only resource that doesn't have two gathering options. It's fine to have steel be 'rare' but giving the player more choices gives them more flexibility.

My alternative is a very inefficient way to gather steel. You couldn't rely solely on it like a coal thumper, it's a separate research branch that has its own opportunity cost, will need 3x the personnel to operate at optimum capacity compared to steelworks, would get less upgrade tiers (say scrap yard/steam scrap yard) and also needs to be close to a lot of other buildings making optimum placement challenging. It's way to augment steel production without additional steam cores once you've built on all the steel deposits.

[Aturchomicz]

Originally posted by Bobywan:

I don't like it, it would break the game.
You just have to deal with the bottleneck by researching steel tech and using automatons on steel.

Since when is a silightly unbalanced game unfun?

[Tiasmoon]

You forget that you can still get more steel by using Automatons and extended/24h shifts on the steel workshops, or by simply researching advanced versions of the building earlier.

That aside, steel also doesnt have as many uses as wood does. If steel is a bottleneck for you and you arent playing Winterhome, then that means you didnt plan far enough ahead.

Originally posted by Lurcolm:

Originally posted by Bobywan:

I don't like it, it would break the game.
You just have to deal with the bottleneck by researching steel tech and using automatons on steel.

I had two steelworks working with automatons. I went as far as I could in research, but combined they couldn't even manage a tenth of the power of my wood production. I couldn't build more steelworks, since there wasn't any other place to build it. I had those two steelworks for production and that's it.

Automatons only start with 60% efficiency. If you want to optimize your steel production, then use workers during the working hours and Automatons/24h shift outside of it.

If your steel production was really as low as a tenth of your wood production that means you overproduce wood and underproduce steel.

Originally posted by Lurcolm:

Yeah, this actually hit me recently in the Ark scenario. One of the things there, not saying cuz I don't want to ruin it for anyone who hasn't tried it, needs a lot of steel. Wood was incredibly easy to source, but I kept running out of steel due to me rushing to get everything sorted out. Thus, I couldn't do the thing I needed to do

You ran out of steel because you build steel workshops too late. Btw if you are having trouble with Arks: dismantle the automaton at the start. That will give you a much easier start.

[Darkstrong]

Also, there IS another source of steel, at least in the campaign - you can get steel from steel outposts.
That aside, I never had issues with getting too little steel at max research. Two working steelworks with automatons will produce more steel than you could ever use, unless you are actively and purposefully wasting it.

[Tiasmoon]

There is no campaign. Just a number of different scenarios. Not all scenarios have steel outposts, or even any outpost at all. Endless modes dont have outposts either.

The scenario that is relevant to this discussion: The Arks; doesnt have a steel outpost.

[Panfilo]

I'm aware of steel outposts. I was talking about buildings you can construct. Steel is the only resource that has one building type, all the other resources give you a choice between a cheap/inefficient/manpower intensive option and an expensive/efficient option.

[amordron]

Originally posted by Bobywan:

I don't like it, it would break the game.
You just have to deal with the bottleneck by researching steel tech and using automatons on steel.

Completely agree.

Every game needs a bottleneck if the player has ready access to everything removes a good chunk of the game by making no need to plan around limited resources.

Steel works well as a limited resource you need to play for as it’s constantly steel it works well as you know going in you need to setup steel fast or will likly run out.

As for having a steam core version that dislike as it would be like wall drill that it’s advantage over the others is so high that you must get it over the others as steel is the bottleneck no other resource do you gain as much by keeping in good amounts removing the balance between steam core buildings that keeps them close to the same value with hothouses being the best use early coal mines late. With autos always being worse but not limited by spots like coal mines or by the limited max need of food.

[Panfilo]

My idea wasn't a steam core version but an alternative that was slower than steel works,giving the player an option to expand steel production at certain points ie you don't have any additional steam cores but want to increase your steel income, you could build a few scrap yards to carry you over until you could upgrade the steel works further.

The scrap yard could generate a pile up to 20 steel a day assuming it was adjacent to 5 non gathering post/scrap yard work buildings. Realistically, steel would be trickling in and it's functionality would mainly be generating additional steel after you built over all the steel deposits. So it would take two to equal a single T1 steel works and require 50 workers for 2x scrap yard+2x gathering post compared to 10 guys getting 40 steel a day from the steel works. Hardly imbalanced when you factor the worker:steel:build footprint ratios.

[Tiasmoon]

I dont see any problem with how steel is now. Depending on how well you plan your development you are either swimming in steel, out of steel, or somewhere in between. The option to increase your steel gain by a lot does exist: by investing in steel sooner rather then later.

If you go into steel works early on, then you will be bottlenecked by research rather then steel.

So it would take two to equal a single T1 steel works

If you need more steel, why not simple upgrade to T2? It almost doubles their output. Its also a pretty early tech so its very easy to get.

[amordron]

Originally posted by Panfilo:

My idea wasn't a steam core version but an alternative that was slower than steel works,giving the player an option to expand steel production at certain points ie you don't have any additional steam cores but want to increase your steel income, you could build a few scrap yards to carry you over until you could upgrade the steel works further.

The scrap yard could generate a pile up to 20 steel a day assuming it was adjacent to 5 non gathering post/scrap yard work buildings. Realistically, steel would be trickling in and it's functionality would mainly be generating additional steel after you built over all the steel deposits. So it would take two to equal a single T1 steel works and require 50 workers for 2x scrap yard+2x gathering post compared to 10 guys getting 40 steel a day from the steel works. Hardly imbalanced when you factor the worker:steel:build footprint ratios.

Still removes the steel bottleneck adding a large inbalance when talking about a game balanced around that steel bottleneck to the point of a entire map being made around it but even the other ones being limited by it.

The core part is only one small part of the inbalance being spoken about the core part is ruining the steel bottleneck that should be there. There is a key reason why that steel bottleneck is even maintained in the last autumn.

You always reach a point of extra labor so with your suggestion would be able to run the steel increase with no real cost so all your doing is removing a significant part of the difficulty for no reason.

Would be different if there was a clear reason that made up the difficulty elsewhere but that no matter what the difficulty would change you will never keep it the same. Why risk ruining maps that are already well balanced and made with a change that has no real need to happen just since you think there should by two sources like the option others.

There is no need for there to be two sources and makes total sense for there to not be. While the balance is vary much based on that bottleneck so it would be a significant change for the worse not the better by removing a good chuck of the difficulty. The steel bottleneck should not be a issue If you plan out producing steel and prioritize it. There is no need for a get out of jail card for people that don’t correctly prioritize it.

[Little Joe]

I think of steel as more of a regulator for the player. Along with manpower and steam cores it prevents the player from accelerating development too quickly and ensures that the scripted temp shifts exert a consistent pressure on the city.

[MaebeKnot]

If you are researching/upgrade the many different ways to collect coal and wood you are researching wrong and will not be able to win in the hardest difficulties. You should focus on one depending on the scenario and what makes the most sense. If you are not getting enough steel than you are not researching/upgrading the steel building early enough.

In easy modes sure you will research so fast it doesn't matter if you spread your research around. Yet you will find the scenario insanely easy if you don't. Try and spread research on harder difficulties and Game Over. Sure you don't have options to collect steel in different ways. This just means one less thing to think about when it comes to the best approach to collect steel in any given scenario.