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No need; look no further than my explanations:
- Zero can't attack while moving; he could turn, but deciding to attack on the ground meant you were stationary.
- Zero doesn't have even close to the attack range of Ace. Seriously, look at Ace's second Saber slash and compare it to the range of Zero's. And then, notice that Ace's second slash has a hitbox that extends EVEN FARTHER than the actual animation. It's absurd.
- More of the damage of Zero's combo is in the final hit, whereas Ace's attacks are more evenly proportioned. (Zero's combo damage values are typically 2-2-5, compared to Ace's 15-15-25. While comparing the damage values between games is kind of fruitless, the point is that the first two hits sum up to more damage than the third hit.
- Zero doesn't have a charged slash, which deals more than the third hit of his combo, which he can then proceed to follow up with the rest of his combo for effectively double the damage that he can usually do. The Charge Slash combo is 30-15-25, meaning that the first two hits deal almost double the damage of the third hit, making him far and away much more powerful than Zero.
- Zero can't immediately attack with a saber combo again without at least moving, slowing down his DPS and bringing it more on par with X's even though Zero's saber deals slightly more damage than X's shots, whereas X can fire continuously regardless of which attack he performs.
- Bosses have a long enough invulnerability period after Zero's combo that simply standing around and swinging your saber like a jackwagon was ineffective and dangerous, whereas there's virtually no risk to standing really close with Ace and performing multiple charged slashes, which would cause him to quickly outpace Nina in every fight where he can safely get close to his opponent (i.e every fight except Kur).
All of my suggestions are based on the correct assumption that certain restrictions placed on characters in the MMX series were done so for a reason, and weren't just arbitrary choices.
Ace, as it stands, is brainless and generally not-fun-at-all to play. There's no reason that someone like me, who's not even that good with Zero in comparison to X, should be able to pick Ace when all I play is Nina, and just immediately complete a run on my first try. It's boring. If Nina was brought to that power level, 20XX would be a joke. The proper solution is not to effectively turn Nina into Axl; it's to balance the levels slightly better, and nerf Ace.
Could you be troubled to rewrite this in terms of concrete suggestions?
"20XX is a game built to feel like Mega Man X, but with random levels, random powerups, permanent death, and multiplayer."
My referencing of mechanics in Mega Man X are not without merit.
But, sure, here are my suggestions.
ARGUMENT: Ace is overpowered, should be nerfed.
SUGGESTIONS:
- Using the A-Saber on the ground should render Ace unable to move; attack animation can only be canceled by a jump or a dash.
- The third hit of Ace's saber combo should have a longer animation, preventing him from performing the combo again so quickly.
- The damage distribution of Zero's saber combo should be such that the first two hits don't add up to more than the third hit. (e.g Right now the base damage is 15-15-25, and it should be something like 15-15-38 or 10-10-25; the framework I'm starting with is that in most games, Slash 1 and Slash 2 deal 4/5ths of the dash of Slash 3.)
- Removal of higher max health and higher base jump height, both of which allow him to play extremely recklessly.
- Add a default air dash, to keep him more agile and mobile than Nina, while encouraging his playstyle to revolve around dodging and maneuvering around attacks, rather than jumping so high that he can supersede combat altogether in many cases.
- Removal of Charge Slash; OR, the Charge Slash prevents usage of the saber combo afterward, a la Mega Man Zero.
- IF Charge Slash is removed, alter boss vulnerability windows in such a way that Ace can perform the full Saber Combo on enemies before becoming immune to attacks.
- Clean up the hitboxes of Ace's attacks, which occasionally extend past the actual animation of the attacks (which are already incredibly long).
Certainly 20xx has been made in the spirit of MMX. Can't be any doubt about that. But there are certainly a good deal of elements about it that aren't like the X series.
If I were to accept that 20xx should be more like MMX, simply because the creator has evoked a lot of themes from MMX then I'd be reasonably required to demand that of every single departure this game's made from form.
Nonetheless, I'll try to address the spirit of the comments your making. Ideally we'll be able to chat without resorting to stone throwing.
• I find that Ace absolutly requires the ability to move when attacking and to attack rapidly. Not only are the level layouts more aerial, requring you move and attack, but the time limits press a bit of urgency on the player. Ace is designed as a more aggressive character. Forcing him to stand still when attacking would remove (or at least hamper) that feel. Further, just to address your concerns about Zero, Ace doesn't have access to a buster. Zero did. His sword was just a sick, sick, auto-kill bonus.
• Hit combos are tricky business to balance. Without enough incentive to make me stick around for three hits, I would just one-shot, move, one-shot, move and so on. Forcing the animiation to take longer and the attack to do less damage would just encourage me to dash-cancel and swing again. or to only use charge attacks. The third hit needs enough incentive for me to bother doing.
• I agree that speed, jump height and health for Ace aren't needed at all. I wouldn't be disappointed to see them nerfed out-- but I also don't think they're granting all that much advantage. These bonuses are quickly acquired in the first level.
• Ace doesn't need an air dash. Ace is already supreme. Even if you take away his extra jump poewr from the start, he'll just get more.
• Ace DOES need charge slash. It's the only way for him to land on a platform that is otherwise filled with doom (late game sky temple). A delay timer after the slash might work, but it would probably require a buff of the charge slash as a result.
• Invul frames are, to my mind, never the solution. Kur has done a pretty good job of making me respect him and keep my distance. If the other bosses are failing to do that, the other bosses need bigger teeth. But if my hits don't register because 'that be too powerful', then the game is cheating me to make up for itself.
• Probably the hitbox could do with cleaning-- but I imagine that's down the road.
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Added:
That said, if I were on board to nerf Ace (rather than allowing Nina to fire up), I'd say...
• Just remove the triple hit bonus all-together. If I hit three times, let me do damage for hitting 3 times. I don't need a bonus for that.
• Get rid of the starting benefits for Ace (agreed)
• Get rid of the damage bonus. Let Ace's attack do just as much as Nina's shot. It may seem like a bad idea, but Ace's attacks already cleave enemies and have huge area's of effect, while also striking overhead. He's doing just fine.
Zero only had a buster in X6, and he had it in X5 *if* you started the game as Zero. It was vestigial and not especially important to his design as a character. Case in point - 3/5 MMX games feature Zero with no buster. (Unless you count X3's iteration of Zero, but let's not...)
But, I digress. Ace is not pressed for time in these levels; hell, Nina is barely pressed for time, and I rarely run out of time for the bonus playing her. Ace needs something to slow him down, if anything.
Ace can still be aggressive. I'm not entirely certain why people think that keeping him stationary while attacking will make him suddenly very passive and hard to use; we did it for years in MMX, so it's not new, and it certainly didn't slow Zero down to the point where he was useless or boring to play.
All it means is that you have to at least jump or dash first. In other words, if you have a 1-2-3 that does tons more damage than Nina can dish out in that span of time, there has to be some sort of drawback, and there currently isn't one. I think the MMX series had it right, where Zero had to duck out and back in if he failed to kill his target in one combo, or at least know whether he had enough time to do a really quick jump/dash and go for a second combo.
No doubt, they are tough to balance; however, that's at least part of why I'm suggesting a return to something that a developer had perfected in the same genre several years ago. It's not an unreasonable thing to ask that Ace sometimes have to not use his combo; one of the ways that Zero was worse than X is that some enemies are very dangerous to get close to, and while X could take them out from range, Zero had to duck in and out and take it slowly in those cases. Right now, Ace doesn't have that concern, and it's one of many reasons why he's just plain superior to Nina (although I'd also argue that there are no stage enemies in 20XX that are more dangerous at close range, either).
Ace doesn't need to keep a feature in order to prevent him from gaining a weakness; he NEEDS a weakness in the first place. There's seriously nothing that Ace is bad at, except, specifically, fighting Kur.
How did you like playing Zero in the Mega Man X series, as a related aside? This particular change would make it work similar to most of the games in the MMX series (except X4, where any saber slash triggered invulnerability and Zero was horrendous at fighting bosses).
What I'm suggesting would honestly lead to Ace dealing potentially MORE damage to bosses at the moment, but instead of having consistent, high, risk-free damage, it would reward him for finding the the perfect moment to attack, which has always been the most fun part of combat with Zero imo.
...In theory, anyways. The bosses right now need a rebalance in a bad way, because most of them are easy.
This could work. My concern here is that this might be too much of a damage nerf. It's one thing if Ace needs to choose his opportunities carefully, but it's an entirely different matter if, no matter how well you play Ace, his reward for finding those big opportunities to move in are marginal at best. It would certainly lend itself to keeping Ace mostly the same, but without any large-scale changes; however, I'm pretty sure this was more-or-less the state Ace was in before he received a huge buff that put him where he is now. I could be remembering that wrong.
Sorry if any of this was said already. Those were some pretty long discussions after the first few posts, and I totally pulled a "didn't read, lol"
http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Zero_Buster
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I played X all day in the old games. He always felt like the 'right way' to play the game. Zero felt cumbersome, but also far too strong. Both things turned me off to him.
Try an Ace run and pick up the battleaxe weapon upgrade. It does what you're talking about: does a crazy amount of damage, but makes you plant when you swing. And is silly slow.
----
John-
Yeah, I'm pretty much on board with you. But I don't remember how that bubble you're talking about worked. Did it actually do melee damage? If so, wouldn't that let her just facecheck things?
It seems to me that at this point, you're beginning to make an argument in favor of Ace's playstyle because you don't like playing as Zero. It's fine if you don't like playing as Zero and it SHOULD be fine if you ultimately don't like playing as Ace. But, a character shouldn't be superfluously easy to play just for the sake of mass appeal. Always bear in mind that this is a roguelike, based on a notoriously difficult game series in gaming history. The appeal is going to be narrow as it is; keeping Ace super-easy to play is just a potential way to alienate a fanbase of people who like MMX and roguelikes - in other words, people who want to play a game that's _really_hard.
The thing is, comparing 20XX to Megaman X is like comparing apples to oranges. There's a lot of things similar about them but they are not the same thing and we shouldn't compare every single intricate detail. For example; Zero doesn't get a spear, or a giant freakin' axe. I believe it's fine to look at the Megaman X series for inspiration -- but looking at it for a solution may be going too far.
For the Ace Players: When/Where do you feel Ace is the weakest at the moment? I.E., what stages do you fear the most? What bosses do you fear the most? Are there specific sections you really feel that not having as much range as Nina has been a drawback? Etc.
I believe if we can data collect a lot of opinions, we can see what needs tweaking a little bit better; if it even needs tweaking at all.
He actually did have weapons that altered his range, attack speed, and a few other things in Mega Man X8, and they were acquired in the course of normal gameplay. It's where I figured the inspiration for weapons with Ace came from to begin with.
I'm not saying, in any case, that everything should be exactly like Mega Man X, either. However, Ace is too strong, and even if my suggested solutions aren't ultimately the best possible solutions, they could be implemented right now and he'd be much more in-line than he is currently.
While I don't think that's 100% of the problem, I agree that there are more factors adding to Ace's power level than just Ace himself. It's definitely worth looking into.
As for my own personal experience, there aren't really any enemies that Ace is afraid of. What are all the enemies in 20XX?
Aginsort:
1. Bats: These are fodder for Ace. Not necessarily a bad thing, they still serve their function.
2. Cannons: These should be theoretically difficult for Ace to handle, but they aren't; partly because they don't remove their shield and start attacking until you're extremely close, partly because they don't fire right away after removing their shield, and partly because Ace can jump while doing his combo, so even if it DOES fire off before Ace kills it, he can just jump and continue attacking. He's not slowed down at all by it.
3. Bees: Also fodder for Ace, but not necessarily a bad thing, as they still are appropriately obnoxious in the right situations.
4. Snake Lights: Well-balanced for Ace. The spread shot means he has to actually duck in and out, and take the right opportunities to strike.
5. Wheels: Slightly harder for Ace than Nina, but still not hard; it's often easy to kill them with a Charge Slash combo before they make it into range.
Frostor:
1. Shield Guys: Not difficult for Ace, but also not difficult period. Not a very well-designed enemy. You wait, then you attack. I don't think they serve any important purpose.
2. Penguins: Not difficult in general. There's not a lot of narrow spaces in the new Frostor (which was part of what made them dangerous before), and their low health and slow speed makes them easy to circumvent.
3. Spiders: Not difficult for Ace, unless there's a ton of them below him. You can easily run in and kill them before they detonate.
Vaculab:
Apes: Not dangerous enough in general. Nina can snipe them, but they also take too long to fire, so Ace can easily kill them before they take their shot.
Plants: Not dangerous in general, unless there's several in one spot. Nina can snipe them, and they are too slow to attack Ace before he kills them.
"Burrow": This is another enemy that should theoretically be difficult for Ace; however, much like the cannon enemies, he can jump over their attack without slowing down his own offense.
Eridu:
(In general, I feel like most of the enemies in Eridu aren't dangerous; however, there's very little platform economy, and most of it is filled with enemies. This is what makes Eridu a bit too difficult for Nina.)
1, Eridu Cannons: Not dangerous, except in large numbers. Run in, kill it before it shoots you.
2. Shield Guy: Not dangerous in general. They are slightly obnoxious for the way that they can attack you before they ever come on screen, but not really a threat for Nina or Ace, other than as a potential thing you can run into on accident...but, isn't that what the bats are for?
3. Laser Beam guys: Not difficult, except in narrow vertical sections, and significantly easier for Ace, due to his wider attacks and burst damage.
So what I'm seeing here is a lot of mostly ineffective enemies (both ineffective against Nina AND Ace, to be fair), a few enemies which are difficult for Nina to deal with, and a few enemies that SHOULD be difficult for Ace to deal with.
Bosses aren't looking much better, either (Bear in mind, bosses I believe are getting reworked VERY soon, so even though this is the current state of the bosses, it might look completely different before long):
1. Rollster: Not dangerous. Nina can hit it with charge shots without standing in front of it, and Ace can hit it with Charged Slashes without standing in front of it. The only possible way for Rollster to be dangerous at the moment is if you have to stand in front of it.
2. Perforator: Not dangerous. Too much time in between attacks, some attacks are redundant, some attacks are completely ineffective (the 4-way fire misses you, even if you are standing on the middle ledges, without you having to do anything).
3. (Penguin Boss): Not dangerous. When you're at-risk to get hit, jump into the teleporter to dodge.
4. (Spider Boss): Not dangerous. Nina can stay as far away as possible and be fine. Ace is in slightly more danger, as he has to get close to the boss and risk getting hit by the smaller spiders. However, in general, as long as you stay below the boss when it's on the wall, it's very hard for even Ace to get hit by the spiders.
5. The Twins: Hard for Nina, Easy for Ace. Nina can't take out the shields very easily, which sometimes forces her to stand in dangerous spots. The magnetic ceiling causes more problems than it helps when trying to dodge attacks. Ace can destroy the shields extremely easy, and the boss is otherwise stationary, so this fight is a joke for Ace.
6. (Plant Boss): Moderately difficult for Nina, easy for Ace. Nina can't get particularly far away from the seed cannon things, so she has to take some calculated risks to hit them. Ace can easy kill them from below, making it much safer for him.
7. Eternal Star: Not dangerous. Stand on the mid-level platforms as Nina, drop right before E.S reaches you, move to the opposite mid-level platform, repeat. With Ace, you just kite it to the mid-level platforms and employ mostly the same strategy.
8. Kur: Easy for Nina, hard for Ace. Nina can stand on the lowest platform, on the edge farthest away from Kur, and shoot him safely while avoiding every attack; she only has to jump over the sword dash. This is a very difficult fight for Ace, because the only time where it's reasonable to move into melee is after the "The floor is lava" attack. Otherwise, he has virtually no time in-between his attacks, and they will all hit anyone who's right in front of him.
What Im referring to in in x1 the upgraded buster had kind of a dome that would appear behind x with the fully charged pink shot that would damage enemies that were in close range behind and kinda above x. Something like that would help Nina a lot.
The thing with ace is he's super good in close range and has really good mobility. Areas where range becomes an issue like skytemple can be corrected by having boss weapons equpped, essentially giving ace no clear weakness.
- Squishy swarms: As levels progress, enemies tend toward swarming vs tanking. Since Ace cleaves, and Nina doesn't, Nina naturally gets screwed as the stages progress. This is especially evident in late stage challenge rooms where Nina just gets bodied by a million bats/spiders/etc that Ace just kills with one or two swing.
- Charge attacks are worthless: Charging time too long, not enough damage. Especially for Ace, who basically does more damage without charging. The fact that Ace don't get punished for not charging means he can spam all day long with his AoE, bat slaughtering cleave. If charge attacks were more useful, there would be less spam and more precision play. a.k.a more chances for Ace to get whiff punished.
- No midbosses/fatties (yet): Nina would naturally do better against many midbosses and "strong" enemies that you would rather play safe against than bum rush, especially, since with the squishiness of the current enemies, Ace can pretty successfully bumrush anything lategame... and earlygame
- Few flat areas. People have mentioned this, but there's alot of vertical climbing in this game, and not much horizontal platforming, and in those horizontal platforming sections, theres usually some kind of wall to block nina's shots (e.g. that stupid lava pit in agnisort that usually spawns a cannon or snakelight).
- No Rush blocking situations: This follows the two above points, but in alot of platformers, there are usally situations of a big, stationary, hard hitting, fatty edge guarding a platform that you can't skip unless you eat half your life in damage. At the moment, the closest thing we have is sky temple, but as elfmo mentioned, there's so little platform economy, that nina doesn't get to take advantage of the situations.
-Slopes: Ace doesn't really care, Nina does. Not much to say here, but you know, just FYI. those ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ice slopes w/ spiders on frostor.
-Platform Economy: There's alot of situations where you're fighting on or through moving/vanishing platforms. This basically forces you to advance through the level or die from stage hazard, which ends up meaning playing Nina like Ace.
- Stage Bonus: The timer clearly favors reckless fighting, which is something Ace is much better at surviving, see everything above. Nina gets punished just for existing becuase she's less likely to get the Stage bonus. Maybe an alternative bonus like a kill counter or something that favors nina...
I guess the TL;DR here is:
Nina has range! Range is amazing! But, she never gets to use it becuase enemies are usually above her, below her, or behind a wall. Or she's on top of a vanishing/moving/eletrified/spiked platform that wants to kill her.
Also, Ace has cleave and enemies are too squishy.
That's a bit ad hominem don't you think?
Yup, aboslultly!
Wait... what?
I agreed with nearly every point you wrote down, but I came to a different conclusion. The slopes are an especially good example.
When Nina has the spread shot or the 4-way shot, these slopes aren't a problem. If she hasn't yet gotten one of those, these slopes are infuriatingly effective defenses. Now of course, Ace wouldn't have an issue with them. He'd just swing, and it'd be fine.
But some people have blamed Ace for that. They say that, rather than offering Nina an answer to the relativly mundane 'slope monster' question, that we should leave it, and balance Ace out by finding other mundane problems for him to be vexed by.
Following this line of thinking might certainly result in a pair of characters who are more balanced with each other. But it seems a lot less fun to play this way.
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Ok, what about this as an idea? Everything stays the same, but Nina gets strictly limited homing rockets that go after the nearest thing to her in a direct route. She can maybe only hold one or two, but they drop like items.
I'm sorry if you feel this way; I wasn't trying to insult you or in any way destroy your credibility. But think about what I'm saying to you - If I'm laboring to make a point about why Ace is unbalanced for various reasons, and explain the changes I would make based on the fact that he'd be "more like Zero", and your response isn't even to come up with a better nerf, or even debate why my suggestions are too much/don't address his real issues; but to reply with a post that effectively says "Well, I never liked Zero anyways"...do you see how I might think that your real interest is to keep Ace the same for no other reason than that you enjoy playing him as-is?
The developers are making different characters to appeal to different people, while at the same time trying to create a game that matches their vision (Mega Man X roguelike, i.e VERY HARD GAME). They are not under any obligation to make sure everyone likes playing both characters equally.
Let me pose a question to you: You are a huge proponent of not-nerfing Ace, but buffing Nina. There are also plenty of people here who seem to agree that Ace is too powerful (although admittedly, we think so for a variety of different reasons). You don't want to change Ace at_all. The only reason that SHOULD happen is if Ace doesn't actually faceroll the whole game (IMO he does), NOT because he's fun to play - the game should be hard.
With all that in mind, tell me: What makes Ace NOT-overpowered? What kinds of things does Ace NOT deal with effortlessly, let along have a difficult time with? (Besides Kur, which I'll grant is the only thing I ever have trouble with when playing as Ace.)