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Yea, but sanity converter is the useful one, with the worthwhile tradeoff. It is much easier to find a use for it than most of the other ones, and is much easier to build around. The other ones don't do that, since they have little reward for their risk. No one denies that sanity converter and consuming fury are often worth the risk, but the other ones don't have that. The axe can be good if you get Armatote's pound, but that doesn't excuse how unbalanced the tradeoff is. There just needs to be more reward with the others aside from very specific niche uses.
I'm not saying that the prototypes are in a good state. What I am saying though is that the "niche" uses each one has are being a bit exaggerated.
For example, I always take the leaf plating, unless I already have enough jump and speed. I don't care about the Max HP loss. Max HP is incredibly plentiful. And the way you mitigate low max HP is simply by not getting hit. That doesn't sound like good advice, but it's really the truth of it. I know I'm good at the game and I know how to avoid taking damage if need be and the extra speed/jump only helps with that.
Consuming Fury is a no brainer. It's basically Glass Cannon delux. Better stats for an even more forgiving drawback.
As you said, Sanity Converter is good in specific situations -- or as I mentioned above, can be so good that it carries the run (my penguin was doing 810 damage by stage 8 -- it was 2~3 shotting bosses by itself).
Final Shell as also mentioned is meant to be used in specific situations, usually as a last-ditched desperation attempt, or when you are near victory anyways.
Violence Enhancer in my opinion is a pretty good mix of balance. It's good if you're good. It's bad if you're bad. The drawback means nothing if you're very good at avoiding damage, the same way as Leaf plating works.
Uncharging force can be good for Ace in specific situations, less so in this patch though. And it is indeed too gimpped for Nina who relies too much on charging to even function. The drawback should be changed. Perhaps instead of barring charging outright, that it doubles or even triples the amount of time needed to charge. This would put it more in line for the amount of attack you gain.
Earth plating is also too bad. As I said before, Max HP is already plentiful. There's no reason you should need to pick this up. I might consider it if it had the additional bonus of allowing health capsules to recover you for more health. This one is also another one that Nina can't really consider getting though based on how she's currently designed.
Interesting Times is just too passive. It has practically no benefit or drawback. I'd rather it be changed from instead of just rolling stats randomly, that perhaps it effected your bonus time instead to being -way- shorter, but you get -massive- rewards for achieving it. This would be a lot more intruiging and brings the whole risk versus reward factor that prototypes are supposed to be about. Rushing a level to the point of recklessness and avoiding all the drops is risky, and you may not even make the bonus time. But if you do, you can reap the rewards for doing so.
Brutish Augmentation I... just get when I've not found any power boosts at all and it looks like I'm going or am already in an attack build. It can be used in certain situations like how most prototypes should be, but this is a "I might as well" type of pick up rather than having to think about the consequences. Even then, that decision may not be right if you have already selected powers, you're wasting them. Powers are also fun to use, which makes this prototype barring access from a pretty crucial and fun mechanic of the game. Which is why I don't like it and would indeed like for it to be changed, even though it can be used in its current state.
I basically only get this when I already have a full Dracopent set.
That's actually a clever idea. I never thought about actively enhancing Repros with the power stat.
Unfortunately, with the current scoring system, the max HP loss will most likely result in a direct reduction of your final score in challenge runs. So this prototype even achieves the opposite of what OP wanted, and that's also my main gripe with it.
Unfortunately, with the current scoring system, the max HP loss will most likely result in a direct reduction of your final score in challenge runs. So this prototype even achieves the opposite of what OP wanted, and that's also my main gripe with it. [/quote]
While that may be true, the entire scoring system needs to be -- and most likely will be, completely revamped anyways.
In a normal run, without needing to care about score and only just caring for reaching the finish line, it's fine.
We're certainly the minority here. I feel like catering to what is only good for us will hurt the game's overall scope.
I refer to my co op buddy again since I feel he's a great foil to my nerdy skill at 20xx. 25% hp is nothing to me. He frequently comments about me jumping into pits of lava for nuts or something and asking if it's really worth it. You wouldn't believe how he scoffs when I grab proto augs. A bit of speed and jump height for a fourth of his health is just not something he'll ever be willing to do. I think that a very large portion of players would feel the same.
While it may not be a great tradeoff on paper, +2 jump and +3 speed makes it much easier to get around the levels if you're already lacking mobility.
That doesn't happen very often, but the times it does, you'll be glad for it.
When you think about it though, for new people, you just explained pretty much every prototype. Indeed, when I was new at the game, I scoffed at picking up the glass cannon. At that time, being very new to the game, I scoffed at losing 2 of my max HP, even when I already had 25+ HP.
Now I take a glass cannon even if it sets me to a mere 4 max HP. That essentially means I lost 50% of my health for +4 attack damage and +4 speed.
What your friend sees as a dumb idea is a trap most new players fall into, even in card games. Health is not a stat -- it's a resource. You're spending your health to get nuts. This is totally okay.
In the case of prototypes, you're spending that resource to gain stats. It's literally the same reason people auto pick up Consuming fury. You are confident you don't need that health at the start of the level for the extra power and attack damage. In the same vein, I am confident I do not need the 25% extra health, no matter how much maximum health I have, so I automatically pick it up -- assuming I don't have too much mobility already.
I've played so many runs, and it's very very rare that I do bad enough, where the 25% health would matter. In very many of my runs, I don't even go down into red health, on exceptions where I purposely put myself down to red health, via the red vending machines.
It's okay to spend health points to get nuts on or in hazards, it's okay to spend health to spew out nuts from a vending machines, and it's okay to spend health on a glass cannon which is basically a bronze band and 2/3rds of a ninja sash. So I don't see why it's so jarring to spend your health in obtaining basically a plumber's hat and a ninja sash that costs health as a resource instead of nuts as a resource to obtain it. If I could spend my health as a currency for every item, I definitely would; because I often have far more health than I actually need. This is why I willingly jump onto every spike trap, every pit of liquid and chase after every nut even if it means falling down a bottomless pit.
Just trying to say that some people just won't ever reach that skill plateau. Some people can't progress past that barrier and we should try to accomodate them as well as ourselves who want the extra challenge. I've seen a lot of elitist talk in regards to 20xx (not saying from you, just in general) and I do feel like it's pushing this game into a situation that my be off putting to potential players.
I don't think the tradeoff is the problem with leafmetal. It is actually a decent tradeoff since health containers cost more nuts than plumber hat and ninja sash, and its free. However, my main problem with it is how it scales. While any health loss may seem inconsequential if you are good enough to never take damage, violence enhancer already uses that same philosophy, and is much better in using it for that purpose. Most players will still view health as an important resource. Plus, it is not always 25%. The rule where it always take 3 health if you're hp is 12 or below harms its viability early game.
After you have a decent amount of health, it is no longer worth picking up because the boost doesn't scale as well. Its not nearly as dangerous as other prototypes, but I still feel it should scale better. A better scale would be gaining 1 speed and jump for every health converted. It would buff the lower level one by gaining an extra jump, and would be a worthwhile tradeoff at later levels. It would also differentiate it from glass cannon, which has a similar tradeoff with health for speed, and right now the main notable difference is that leafmetal takes one health more. Experienced players can always take it without fear, and casual players would be encouraged to try the risk, especially if their health isn't full, since its common at low level play to gain a lot of max health up but always have it remain around yellow.
Because jumping into hazards for nuts and red vending machines damage you instead of taking away your maximum health so you can get it back. Glass Cannon always takes a set amount for attack and speed but Leafmetal Plating is not a static number.
When you have some extra health, Glass Cannon is a no-brainer because at that point, 2 hp isn't that much but Leafmetal Plating will always take 1/4th of your health regardless of how much you have unless you have less than 12. If you haven't seen any health boosts, taking it at 8 HP is more than 1/4th so It's not even good at low numbers when a percentage won't scale too drastically.
All the prototype augments fall into 2 categories right now:
Insane risk, low reward
Low risk, low reward
They need a rework so that you can ask yourself "Am I good enough that the reward will be worth the risk or should I leave this?" because right now they aren't living up to high risk high reward and will only ever be useful in the most desperate situations where all they do is get you past the current stage until it leaves you too crippled to take on the next one.
If this is what they are meant for, then they still need a rework because even then, the probability of them being helpful is so low that you'd be better off not even stepping into the lab take a look and saving that time for the bonus timer.
I think very few people will argue against this point. That's what most of the people in this thread have been saying at least. The main arguements are about the low risk low reward prototypes, which things like leafmetal and interesting times fall into. There will be drastically different opinions here, like they are either perfectly fine or need to be completely removed (I still don't get all the interesting times hate; it does its job well of being low risk/reward and 100% rng based). Consuming fury is the only one with low risk high reward, to the point where I think it could be justified as an augment.
The best way to get a fix for this is to debate it, since if the community can agree on one fix they will be more likely to patch it in, instead of having them have to come up with a solution themselves which may not be as liked by the community.
Taking a leaf metal plating when you have 100 max HP is still low risk. The difference between 75 max HP and 100 max HP isn't really any different when you think about it. This is why I don't care much about taking leaf plating no matter what my HP pool is. If my max health pool is low, then the cost is a non-issue. If it's high, then the cost is a non-issue because I already have a lot of health to spare anyways. The only time I wouldn't take it is if I was already at like, 6 maximum health only or something. I will be willing to go down as low as 4 max HP but any further than that is pushing risk needlessly.
Like I said before, I see health as a resource. It doesn't matter if the HP loss is permanent or temporarily. In essence what I am saying is that I am actually more likely to take it when I have a more abundance of HP when it's more expensive than when I don't if the mobility is something that I actually need at the time of finding it.
Could it be better refined? Of course. I'm not saying it shouldn't be changed. But again, I think people are woefully exaggerating that most of the prototypes cannot be or are never useful and think leaf metal is too risky to take because you lose "so much max HP". If I have 1 billion HP, but default mobility stats and leaf plating came up, I'd still take it for the +2 jump and +3 speed without hesitation even if I meant I lost 250 million max HP.
If I have 4 HP and it only took 1 HP to take (which I know it doesn't work like that btw), I wouldn't take it, because that 1 extra HP at that point is far more important than the mobility.
>every health point is precious
>mp is scarce in late game
>ace without range is a dead ace
>repro+sanity conventor sounds nice but i do rather spam more force nova and take less damage
>life and death situtioans every 10 minutes
>+3spd and 2 jump for 25% of my health?nah when i am fine without any spd/jump
>what good does speed even do outside of boss fights actually lol
>why not get used to your orginal stat and control it better?
>+10hp but makes flapps **** me all they want?i do rather go clutch lv8 es with 1hp
>not like you even see labs at all in skull runs anyway
there is always causal for the newbies
Casual is just normal with 3 augments. Any changes that affect normal will affect casual too.
Right now, prototypes feel like skulls. The only one like any current skulls is final shell, which is like double health famine, but the other ones make the game much more difficult. Plus the rarity of even finding one on a run kills its viability.
I'm curious, is the game selective about prototypes during a purist run? That might be the only time I'd go out of my way to get a leafmetal, since even a little speed and jump can allow for some parkour skips.