Is this game poorly designed?

[Adachi]

I've been in a rather heated debate with a friend who's going into Game Design. I got her this game for her birthday and she claims it's poorly designed and the reason I love it is because of nostalgia is blinding me.

She's played both the full Classic and X series. I haven't played a Megaman game in over a decade, yet I'm outperforming her by light years or whatever scientifical term for very long unit of distance.

But I digress (As another Megaman guy would say). The reason she thinks the design is bad is because the level design isn't tailored to what neither Nina nor Ace can do. In addition, she thinks that you gotta be pixel perfect or you die and the reason for that is because enemies are placed in areas where you feel like you're required to get hit in order to get to them.

She feels as if she doesn't have the room to take care of those threats properly in conjunction with the platforming she has to do, which is especially apparent in the Sky Temple.

She think it's unplayable and her opinion pridely stands.

I know it's not my place to try to force change on her opinion...but this game man...Mighty No.9...

This makes me wonder is it dexterity or luck/praying that helps carry you through even the harshest endeavors this game can toss at you?

What do you guys think? I can try to supply more information if need be because screw my terrible writing.

[Scironex]

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that she's trying to play this like a Mega Man game.

Which is understandable; I mean, this game wears its influences on its sleeve, and trying to say this isn't like Mega Man-

Well, anyway. I think the case is quite the opposite. Your friend feels that 20XX doesn't provide her with the tools to take care of enemies, but from a purely mechanical standpoint, it provides more. Not only are there numerous augments to, well, augment your capabilities, Nina and Ace also possess more raw power than X or Zero ever did; Nina charges her buster faster than X does, Ace is capable of charging full stop, Ace can combo both in the air and whilst moving... the list goes on.

If she's played through all of the Mega Mans through X, then she probably knows that a lot of Mega Man's challenge comes from memorizing level layouts - so to her, she knows exactly what to do in any given situation, thus, to her, MMX has a greater toolkit for beating the levels.

In 20XX, however, you can't do that. Even if you memorize each individual level piece, you can't assume what abilities you will or will not have. Maybe you found the airdash. Maybe you got the double jump. Maybe you got neither.

And maybe that's a dealbreaker. But to me, that's what makes it fun. Games, especially Mega Mans, aren't fun to me if I can say with absolute certainty what I'm going to be doing for the next 5 minutes. They're fun to me when they say, "Hey, here's a scenario, here's what you got, have fun."

Also, regarding the levels not catering to the specific ablities of Ace nor Nina? Is she telling me that the hover boots don't cater to Nina's ability to dish out massive amounts of damage in a line in front of her? Is she telling me that those huge tanky flowers with no movement aren't catering towards Ace's higher damage and combo? The floors and ceilings and walls may not cater to Ace or Nina, but the content - the enemies and augments and bosses - do.

This game is not Mega Man. And if I'm being honest, it's probably not an equal to any of the best Mega Mans. But it is not, by any means, a badly designed game.

[Adachi]

İlk olarak Scironex tarafından gönderildi:

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that she's trying to play this like a Mega Man game.

Which is understandable; I mean, this game wears its influences on its sleeve, and trying to say this isn't like Mega Man-

Well, anyway. I think the case is quite the opposite. Your friend feels that 20XX doesn't provide her with the tools to take care of enemies, but from a purely mechanical standpoint, it provides more. Not only are there numerous augments to, well, augment your capabilities, Nina and Ace also possess more raw power than X or Zero ever did; Nina charges her buster faster than X does, Ace is capable of charging full stop, Ace can combo both in the air and whilst moving... the list goes on.

If she's played through all of the Mega Mans through X, then she probably knows that a lot of Mega Man's challenge comes from memorizing level layouts - so to her, she knows exactly what to do in any given situation, thus, to her, MMX has a greater toolkit for beating the levels.

In 20XX, however, you can't do that. Even if you memorize each individual level piece, you can't assume what abilities you will or will not have. Maybe you found the airdash. Maybe you got the double jump. Maybe you got neither.

And maybe that's a dealbreaker. But to me, that's what makes it fun. Games, especially Mega Mans, aren't fun to me if I can say with absolute certainty what I'm going to be doing for the next 5 minutes. They're fun to me when they say, "Hey, here's a scenario, here's what you got, have fun."

Also, regarding the levels not catering to the specific ablities of Ace nor Nina? Is she telling me that the hover boots don't cater to Nina's ability to dish out massive amounts of damage in a line in front of her? Is she telling me that those huge tanky flowers with no movement aren't catering towards Ace's higher damage and combo? The floors and ceilings and walls may not cater to Ace or Nina, but the content - the enemies and augments and bosses - do.

This game is not Mega Man. And if I'm being honest, it's probably not an equal to any of the best Mega Mans. But it is not, by any means, a badly designed game.

First off, I love that you took the time to write all this. Very well put. That being said...

I can understand 20XX isn't one-to-one in terms of Megaman. But to me, it really feels like Megaman, only I feel as if I can get away with stuff that I normally shouldn't.

I guess her primary issue is the early game in which everything just seems to kick her ass. I could probably show you our entire chat history on discord but that would ultimately require alot of screenshots and I don't feel like doing that. My apologies. To make things simple, I'll list her criticisms:

She complains that the Boss HP raised early on was bad in this recent patch
The levels are super vertical and put enemies in terrible spots for Nina
Ace doesn't have range and the fact that his saber doesn't stun doesn't make it useful
The levels and enemies weren't designed with the characters in mind
She feels as if it's unplayable
She feels she's in a position where she's stuck trying to progress though perfect movement puzzles while fighting off the content in the way
The fact that they throw alot of ♥♥♥♥ at you at later levels isn't good design

She claims that I fail to see these flaws because I'm blinded by the nostalgia of it all.

What I feel the issue is that for my first few hours, the game treated me rather well and I was able to adapt scary quickly. She's not getting the same treatment and because of it, her first impressions are starting to wane towards negative...

I really want her to enjoy this game because I think it's alot of fun. She said she'll keep trying and not give up. I can only blindly hope luck is on her side.

[HeroMystic]

İlk olarak Naedox tarafından gönderildi:

I guess her primary issue is the early game in which everything just seems to kick her ass.

That doesn't sound like a game design problem. Neither does the rest of her complaints.

[Adachi]

I guess I should point out at the time of this comment, she's only played it for 1.7 hours.

[Sephiroth]

sounds like shes one of those people that go on easy difficulty first...Part of gaming is to overcome a challenge, not to have your hand held knowing what to do all the time. Alot of the thrill in gaming is figuring things out by trial and error. youd think a long time megaman player would know that by now.

[HeroMystic]

İlk olarak LV99 Vivi tarafından gönderildi:

sounds like shes one of those people that go on easy difficulty first...Part of gaming is to overcome a challenge, not to have your hand held knowing what to do all the time. Alot of the thrill in gaming is figuring things out by trial and error. youd think a long time megaman player would know that by now.

^This.

As an aspiring game designer myself, I have issues with the level generation myself, but it's nowhere near as intense as she believes it to be. It sounds more like she just doesn't want to figure things out.

I would assume she'd say Dark Souls is the worst game on the planet.

[Necro]

Naedox, how much experience does she have with other Roguelike and Rogue-lite games?

She may in fact have a problem with Roguelike game design as a genre, and not necessarily 20XX in particular.

As a long time Megaman fan myself, I will admit nostalgia plays a huge role in my enjoyment of this game, but under the rose tint it has, there is actually a rather solid game.

I'll try and knock out your bullet points and give a bit of input from my perspective, as wellas someone who has been here for a while, without having been here long enough to be overly bias.

First and foremost, I will need to explain that 20XX is a Rogue-Lite game. This means that you are 'supposed' to get your ass handed to you when you first start.

The main satisfaction comes from learning how enemies act, and how to handle on the fly level generation and enemy placement. Another part about Rogue-lite games is that you get progressively stronger, the more you play. Consider Rogue Legacy for reference, and the homestead building.
The shop at the main hub allows you to buy new unlocks that appear in the game. Right now, at just one hour. You're basically trying to beat Sigma Stage 3, with X from the opening stage. After some more play time, you'll begin to unlock more powerful augs that greatly enhance your survivability, as well as your offensive potential. Now, on to the bullets.

--------------------------------------------------

"She complains that the Boss HP raised early on was bad in this recent patch"
I haven't tested it enough, only doing one boss rush. But the hp increase isn't bad from what I've seen, and at level 4 onward it still evens out. It just means the bosses on stage 1-3 don't die from farting too close to them. They should still 'feel' like boss fights, which honestly didn't feel that way unless you were fighting ES (the bat) on stage 1. So for now, I feel that the increased HP pool is an improvement.


"The levels are super vertical and put enemies in terrible spots for Nina"
This one is interesting because there is a currently ongoing discussion about nina's kit just not offering enough vertical capability. The game isn't final, don't forget, and this is something I see most often discussed. That being said, once you play more, and learn how to use boss powers, you'll find that you have more vertical potential with Nina than it seems at first.


"Ace doesn't have range and the fact that his saber doesn't stun doesn't make it useful"
I find this one to be a very knee jerk reaction to just how Ace doesn't feel as 'heavy' as Zero does. While I initially hated the way he didn't stagger with saber slashes, it's actually insanely powerful and like they said above me, he's a death machine. He has significantly more range than Zero ever did as well. He isn't supposed to be Nina though. It's a risk/reward situation to pay for his absurdly high damage output.


"The levels and enemies weren't designed with the characters in mind"
Sorry not sure I understand this one. The levels are just various stage tiles that get randomly put together by an algorithm. It isn't perfect yet, and can give you some seriously brutal combination at times, but it's still pretty clearly built for the characters. And, Core Augs, the armor parts, can drastically change the way it feels in certain segment. If you're getting rocked in the Glory Rooms, where Core Augs drop, it can feel unfair though, I understand.


"She feels as if it's unplayable"
Not much I can do about an opinion. Unless you meant mechanically that it was sluggish or something?


"She feels she's in a position where she's stuck trying to progress though perfect movement
puzzles while fighting off the content in the way"
again I may be misunderstanding this one but isn't that the point of the game?


"The fact that they throw alot of ♥♥♥♥ at you at later levels isn't good design"
i'm curious what she would suggest for endgame enemy generation. I feel that it makes endgame very fun to carve through large swathes of enemies. Again though, this relies on the augs you have, which at the beginning is slim to none. It becomes much more manageable and fun, and you'll soon find yourself turning on the Swarm Skull to get even more enemies to soak up that dakka.

Apologies for this Wall of Text, and if it seemed elitist or condescending I apologize. You should shoot her a link to this discussion, as well as the 20xx discord and maybe we can all spitball suggestions, especially since she has a design background. It's still early access, after all, and that's why we're all here.

[Adachi]

İlk olarak Necro tarafından gönderildi:

Naedox, how much experience does she have with other Roguelike and Rogue-lite games?

She may in fact have a problem with Roguelike game design as a genre, and not necessarily 20XX in particular.

As a long time Megaman fan myself, I will admit nostalgia plays a huge role in my enjoyment of this game, but under the rose tint it has, there is actually a rather solid game.

I'll try and knock out your bullet points and give a bit of input from my perspective, as wellas someone who has been here for a while, without having been here long enough to be overly bias.

First and foremost, I will need to explain that 20XX is a Rogue-Lite game. This means that you are 'supposed' to get your ass handed to you when you first start.

The main satisfaction comes from learning how enemies act, and how to handle on the fly level generation and enemy placement. Another part about Rogue-lite games is that you get progressively stronger, the more you play. Consider Rogue Legacy for reference, and the homestead building.
The shop at the main hub allows you to buy new unlocks that appear in the game. Right now, at just one hour. You're basically trying to beat Sigma Stage 3, with X from the opening stage. After some more play time, you'll begin to unlock more powerful augs that greatly enhance your survivability, as well as your offensive potential. Now, on to the bullets.

--------------------------------------------------

"She complains that the Boss HP raised early on was bad in this recent patch"
I haven't tested it enough, only doing one boss rush. But the hp increase isn't bad from what I've seen, and at level 4 onward it still evens out. It just means the bosses on stage 1-3 don't die from farting too close to them. They should still 'feel' like boss fights, which honestly didn't feel that way unless you were fighting ES (the bat) on stage 1. So for now, I feel that the increased HP pool is an improvement.


"The levels are super vertical and put enemies in terrible spots for Nina"
This one is interesting because there is a currently ongoing discussion about nina's kit just not offering enough vertical capability. The game isn't final, don't forget, and this is something I see most often discussed. That being said, once you play more, and learn how to use boss powers, you'll find that you have more vertical potential with Nina than it seems at first.


"Ace doesn't have range and the fact that his saber doesn't stun doesn't make it useful"
I find this one to be a very knee jerk reaction to just how Ace doesn't feel as 'heavy' as Zero does. While I initially hated the way he didn't stagger with saber slashes, it's actually insanely powerful and like they said above me, he's a death machine. He has significantly more range than Zero ever did as well. He isn't supposed to be Nina though. It's a risk/reward situation to pay for his absurdly high damage output.


"The levels and enemies weren't designed with the characters in mind"
Sorry not sure I understand this one. The levels are just various stage tiles that get randomly put together by an algorithm. It isn't perfect yet, and can give you some seriously brutal combination at times, but it's still pretty clearly built for the characters. And, Core Augs, the armor parts, can drastically change the way it feels in certain segment. If you're getting rocked in the Glory Rooms, where Core Augs drop, it can feel unfair though, I understand.


"She feels as if it's unplayable"
Not much I can do about an opinion. Unless you meant mechanically that it was sluggish or something?


"She feels she's in a position where she's stuck trying to progress though perfect movement
puzzles while fighting off the content in the way"
again I may be misunderstanding this one but isn't that the point of the game?


"The fact that they throw alot of ♥♥♥♥ at you at later levels isn't good design"
i'm curious what she would suggest for endgame enemy generation. I feel that it makes endgame very fun to carve through large swathes of enemies. Again though, this relies on the augs you have, which at the beginning is slim to none. It becomes much more manageable and fun, and you'll soon find yourself turning on the Swarm Skull to get even more enemies to soak up that dakka.

Apologies for this Wall of Text, and if it seemed elitist or condescending I apologize. You should shoot her a link to this discussion, as well as the 20xx discord and maybe we can all spitball suggestions, especially since she has a design background. It's still early access, after all, and that's why we're all here.

She has Nuclear Throne under her belt and alot of hours into it. I kinda have trouble with that game, but then again maybe i'm not good at top-down shooters. Gungeon might have had something to do with that...

And I don't mind the wall of text. As long as you didn't mean malice with your criticisms, you did your part pretty good. Great actually.

Also if I were to link her to this thread she would probably be very upset with me...

Also there's a 20XX Discord server? Me want in!!!!

[Cirom]

beep boop i am a discord link[discord.gg]

I'd input my thoughts on this topic too.. but I feel like anything I was about to say, Necro's already handled pretty well. ;o

(I will agree that lategame Agnisort is cheap as cheap can be though. That level can die in a fire. PREFERRABLY IT'S OWN.)

[Adachi]

İlk olarak Cirom tarafından gönderildi:

beep boop i am a discord link[discord.gg]

I'd input my thoughts on this topic too.. but I feel like anything I was about to say, Necro's already handled pretty well. ;o

(I will agree that lategame Agnisort is cheap as cheap can be though. That level can die in a fire. PREFERRABLY IT'S OWN.)

"Preferably its own"
Well played.

[Sairek Ceareste]

Yeah, Agnisort is still in need of some major difficulty balancing. Too much bullet hell late game. So much so to the point that it ends most online runs through sheer latency issues because there's too much literally going on at once.

Still better now than it was in alpha though. *shudder*

Never forget; falling through the walls and floor.

[AgentFlea]

İlk olarak LV99 Vivi tarafından gönderildi:

sounds like shes one of those people that go on easy difficulty first...Part of gaming is to overcome a challenge, not to have your hand held knowing what to do all the time. Alot of the thrill in gaming is figuring things out by trial and error. youd think a long time megaman player would know that by now.

Holy crap I was thinking the exact same thing. Show her some gameplay of a great run, or speedrun and ask her what she thinks about that.

"The fact that they throw alot of ♥♥♥♥ at you at later levels isn't good design"

Yeaa alright that's freaking ridiculous. Does she think bullet hell's or other difficult as ♥♥♥♥ games are poorly designed?

Yes, enemies are put in annoying spots sometimes but... alright this is frustrating considering how easy I find the game. I find it extremely enjoyable with it's balance of challenge, platforming and shoots.

[Zero]

İlk olarak Naedox tarafından gönderildi:

I guess I should point out at the time of this comment, she's only played it for 1.7 hours.

That's understandable then. When I first played, the transition from the Zero/ZX series was incredibly difficult due to the way the mechanics worked. It clicked after the 20 hour mark for me. Then when I went back to Zero/ZX I was playing it like 20XX for ~10 minutes before I readjusted back. I've been playing side scrollers for a long time so the difficulty was more adjusting to the mechanics for me than anything. Everyone adapts at their own pace. It can take anywhere from a few minutes to several hours so if it's not clicking yet, she just needs to give it more time.

[D.Sofren]

I just got done beating Megaman X4 about a week ago, and there's a bit of an irony to this post. I think the most ironic part is the beginning post where she's saying that your love through the game is because of nostalgia...yet a lot of her complaints are comparisons between it and the Megaman games.

Then there's boss health...where in X4, bosses had twice as much health as any of the early game bosses in 20XX.

Level design would be a fair complaint if not for the fact co-op exists and that you can't fairly and randomly generate levels to suit the role of one character or another without forcing a specific playstyle, especially with both on-screen at once. Hell, in X4, the only character-specific parts of levels were made for X for Fourth Armor parts.

Endgame for virtually any roguelike involves either throwing armies at a godlike player, enemies having godlike health, or both....or running out of food. For 20XX, I don't actually see armies though. I see roughly 4 to 6 enemies on-screen maximum throughout any main playthrough, even on "hard mode," and I've already beaten it twice. They did a good job balancing endgame for this, though I'd love to see what super-far-in-endless-mode is like.

...and of course the more obvious thing to wonder about is why anyone would expect a roguelike to be easy.

I'd have to agree with anyone else here that the real problem is just that she hasn't played it long enough, and is just trying to pretend it's the game's fault and not hers. For a beginner, this game is actually way easier than X4. You don't even insta-death to pits and spikes and lava in this one (without a certain skull), and armor is just handed to you.

I mean...imagine doing Cyber Peacock's level for the first time as a complete skrub in X4. Beginners used to think half the levels in that game were unplayable, too.

...and if she wants to argue that you only enjoy the game because you're nostalgic, then tell her the only reason she's trying to argue is because she's a woman. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

-------------------------------------------------------------

Edit: You were curious whether or not this game is about dexterity or luck. I'd have to say a lot of it is dexterity, with a tiny dash of that typical roguelike luck.

A beginner would not beat this game on luck. They may get the perfect armor, get the best drops, etc, but then those bosses would cream em. This isn't a game about following a story, going through beautiful tech-demo linear environments, and then using QTEs to kill a boss. This is a game about accepting the challenge, figuring out what stopped you before, and adapting it so you can go further....and also killing things.

A difficult, skill-based roguelike isn't bad game design, it's called knowing your target audience.

[Epicwindow+-]

as much as i hate to say it i have to admit

yes you can beat lv8 skytemple mortar zone if you manage to find the breakpoint

tl;dr git gud

tips 2 git gud:

1. learn enemy patterns

2.learn stage patterns

3.learn to do superhot and ES early

and remember ace can damage mace knight or lotus when they shot their thingy out