Yet another Level 9 Rant...

[r3d_belmont456]

**********UPDATE**********

Much of what I complained about in this discussion was fixed several updates ago, so many of the complaints and grievances I had with level 9 are pretty much no longer an issue... So if you wish to continue to discuss level 9's difficulty even with said updates, I'd appreiate it if you took the argument to a new thread or at the very least disregard the old post as it pretty much no longer holds any water since the patch...

Thanks again to the devs for at least making reverent mode the closest experience to a megaman game a fan like me could enjoy without tearing their hair out. Wish you the best!

**********OUTDATED**********

This one is going to be a very thorough and a bit ranty analisis, so apologies in advance if I come off as prickly, but after playing through this stage yet again I'm starting to believe the Devs of this game do not remember at all what made a megaman game good in the first place... YES the original Megaman and X games passed the 3rd installment were utterly and brutally hard, I beat them all so from experience I know, but there are so many crucial fundamentals that are completely disregarded and just do not mix well with traditional megaman and the way this game is designed, this is especially made apparent once you get to level 9, please allow me to explain...

in previous megaman games, the Wily Stages in particular were very dependant on using a particular weapon for being able to bypass a situation or beating a Castle Boss significantly easier than with the Buster. The first stage of Wily's castle required the use of a special weapon called the Magnet Beam. Without it, the level was essentially unbeatable, let alone the game. The good news of course was you could always go back to the level it was in and get said item and try again.

Not only that, but every boss weapon was with you at all times so anything the castle threw at you, you were well equipped to handle, so dying at any given time in the wily stages was due to lack of experience/Trial and Error, and in no way was the game at fault for the player's failure. This made every megaman game hard but fair. With 20XX however, you get no such leeway, and here's why:

-You're limited to 3/8 boss weapons each run, despite the bosses also sharing the rock, paper, scissors weakness trait that every megaman game has.
-3 weapons in particular are crucial for dealing with the worst hazards the game has to offer... especially on Level 9.
-Despite the many leg armor upgrades, only two are really mandatory per run and essentially do the same thing.

The problems of Level 9 are further exacerbated by:
-Not being able to hold every boss weapon at all times
-Not being able to obtain every armor piece per run due to RNG.
-Not being able to switch leg gear when needed.
-Randomly generated stages in general.

I've had one dev tell me that stage 9 can be easily beaten with the right weapons and gear, but here's why this argument holds no water to me. Put yourself into the shoes of a player, whether new to the genre or a Megaman Veteran. They have only 3 choices in weapons, 3 which are utterly crucial to beating the last two stages and they don't know which ones they are, neither will they know how to use them properly unless discovered by accident or learned through a trial.

They also don't know how that unlike previous levels (outside of sky temple, and even that's not as bad...) Level 9 is one giant pitfall that takes way too long to clear, and it punishes falls so harshly that even with lives you are more than likely to waste them all in that level alone. Even IF after much trial and error they finally discover what items and gear are needed to clear stage 9, this is where the glaring issue becomes apparent. No matter how your run went RNG wise, you will ALWAYS need the same exact weapons and gear by the time you hit stage 9 or risk ending your run then and there thanks to how unforgiving stage 9 is without them.

This in turn throws the whole design premise of the game out the window because then:
-Every item, gear and boss weapon not needed to clear Stage 9 becomes a wasted slot and a massive beginner's trap.
-the RNG becomes a big hindrance rather than a boon to gameplay because you're then prayng you get 1 of the 2 hover type leg upgrades before stage 9 hits. If you end up getting it via market but are short on currency, well... tough luck.

So in short, not only are you limiting player choice by making a final stage rely heavily on a specific build, but you are also completely contradicting two genres this way. Megaman games have hard final levels that give you every tool you need to beat them, no matter how hard they may be, you have them at all times. This game not only randomly generates boss order, gear you'll find and obstacles you'll face, but also limits the amount of tools you can have equipped at any given time that would allow you to trivialize an otherwise impobable challenge. Worse yet, you make a stage heavily reliant on a static build that you're not entirely guaranteed to have on a run.

HOW THE F*** IS THIS GOOD DESIGN?!! Either make it a full rogue lite game or a full megaman game, you cannot have both or stuff like Stage 9 inevitably happens. How can you claim the RNG adds infinite replayability when you are required to have a very specific build no matter what your run looks like just to have a remote chance at clearing the second to last stage. Why make boss weapons that can kill specific bosses when you don't have room to use them all. Why allow weapons to clear hazards if you cannot possibly hold them all...

This level of contradicting gameplay has created one of the most frustrating roadblocks I've ever seen in a megaman like game, and this is something I just have no control over sadly. This is the kind of thing that creates levels of frustration that will burn out even the most masochistic player out of supporting your game or giving it positive word of mouth. I'm surprised this hasn't been adressed yet...

My suggestion is either make stage 9 fall in line with the rest of the game and make it so that it can be beaten regardless of what gear you have, allow the player access to every boss weapon OR just get rid of/completely overhaul the stage. As it is now, this stage single handedly has ruined the game for me (yet again...), so I may drop it for awhile til it gets adressed.

[batterystaplegames]

Hi!

We're listening to the discussion on this, but I wanted to let you know that you can pick up all 8 boss powers. You have three that're mapped to your buttons, but 8 slots (check the pause screen).

[r3d_belmont456]

Originally posted by batterystaplegames:

Hi!

We're listening to the discussion on this, but I wanted to let you know that you can pick up all 8 boss powers. You have three that're mapped to your buttons, but 8 slots (check the pause screen).

How would you switch them out? and because of not knowing this, I often times ended up not picking up the weapons at all... This is another problem too tbh...

[dead god boogaloo]

Originally posted by red_belmont456:

Originally posted by batterystaplegames:

Hi!

We're listening to the discussion on this, but I wanted to let you know that you can pick up all 8 boss powers. You have three that're mapped to your buttons, but 8 slots (check the pause screen).

How would you switch them out? and because of not knowing this, I often times ended up not picking up the weapons at all... This is another problem too tbh...

Smash the space button until something happens

[r3d_belmont456]

Originally posted by tribal badger:

Originally posted by red_belmont456:

How would you switch them out? and because of not knowing this, I often times ended up not picking up the weapons at all... This is another problem too tbh...

Smash the space button until something happens

I use a controller, also, I still find it rather frustrating/limiting having a stage relying so hard or at least made that much easier with a single leg armor piece. I cannot even use other leg pieces like double jump or 4 way dash because doing so pretty much means I have to work even harder to beat the final stage, made even worse if I have to do it on Normal or Defiant...

[batterystaplegames]

Originally posted by red_belmont456:

Originally posted by batterystaplegames:

Hi!

We're listening to the discussion on this, but I wanted to let you know that you can pick up all 8 boss powers. You have three that're mapped to your buttons, but 8 slots (check the pause screen).

How would you switch them out? and because of not knowing this, I often times ended up not picking up the weapons at all... This is another problem too tbh...

I'd love new player feedback on this - if lots of players aren't learning you can use all 8 powers, that's 100% on us, and we'll find a way to teach it.

20XX has three Power choice controlsets, which you can fix in Change Controls.

The default has 3 powers mapped to buttons, and you can pause and select the powers in your pause menu to swap them. (There's a little "press A to swap!" prompt when you highlight a power in the pause menu.)

If you prefer things MMX-style, you can choose "cycle", which makes it so only Power 1 actually shoots anything, and the Power 2/3 keys cycle back and forth.

If you want access to all 8 powers on the fly without having to pause, Wheel does this. It makes it so Power 2 brings up a wheel with all 8 powers on it (or whichever ones you have), which you can then assign to Power 1.

Hope this helps!

[Tetsuo9999]

Level 9 is frustrating, but you can carry more than three powers. You swap them on the pause menu. Taking all eight can still yield low stats for the endgame, but it's definitely possible. I usually take one or two weapons for boss weaknesses and one or two more for utility.

In my opinion, the other suggestion of making the current level 9 an optional and rare event would work, or simply making the level shorter and a tad more forgiving. The length of the overall level coupled with the long stretches of no solid ground is what makes fatigue set in quickly. Making sure the run length stays around the same as the early access days will help preserve the replay value.

[r3d_belmont456]

Originally posted by batterystaplegames:

Originally posted by red_belmont456:

How would you switch them out? and because of not knowing this, I often times ended up not picking up the weapons at all... This is another problem too tbh...

I'd love new player feedback on this - if lots of players aren't learning you can use all 8 powers, that's 100% on us, and we'll find a way to teach it.

20XX has three Power choice controlsets, which you can fix in Change Controls.

The default has 3 powers mapped to buttons, and you can pause and select the powers in your pause menu to swap them. (There's a little "press A to swap!" prompt when you highlight a power in the pause menu.)

If you prefer things MMX-style, you can choose "cycle", which makes it so only Power 1 actually shoots anything, and the Power 2/3 keys cycle back and forth.

If you want access to all 8 powers on the fly without having to pause, Wheel does this. It makes it so Power 2 brings up a wheel with all 8 powers on it (or whichever ones you have), which you can then assign to Power 1.

Hope this helps!

Man if I knew you could cycle powerups like in MMX I would've set it up ages ago that way, thanks for the info and sorry once again for being so prickly, the stage just ended up bringing my blood to a boil because I did not have the right weapons to deal with all the traps, not to mention I tried a new piece of leg gear just to have fun with it (Since I love dashing) and I ended up losing all my lives on stage 9 because of it...

[RetroNutcase]

I don't think it's powers that are the problem with Stage 9. The problem is simply numerous unfair platforming setups that, if you don't have a leg upgrade of some kind, will eat you alive.

Example: Pulsing beams while on moving platforms, ending with Yoku (Vanishing) blocks. If the Yoku block isn't there yet, you essentially have to try and stall until it is:Oh wait right that pulsing beam is going to hit me and knock me off and make me start all over. *Brilliant*

Stage 10 by comparison, while difficult, still feels a lot more fair because for one it doesn't use bottomless pits, and has more sections where even if you take a hit, you can still advance courtesy of your i-frames.

[Ryvaku]

Wow. I didn't know you could switch Boss Powers ever since I started playing. Though not sure if my run through the game would've been any different.

[Tetsuo9999]

Yeah, the combinations of obstacles the game can throw on you with the yoku blocks is what causes a lot of the frustration, especially considering the length of the level. Level 10 is fun in comparison; lots of enemies and minimal long stretches of bottomless pits which cause chunks of the level to be repeated.

[TemmieNeko]

Originally posted by batterystaplegames:

Originally posted by red_belmont456:

How would you switch them out? and because of not knowing this, I often times ended up not picking up the weapons at all... This is another problem too tbh...

I'd love new player feedback on this - if lots of players aren't learning you can use all 8 powers, that's 100% on us, and we'll find a way to teach it.

20XX has three Power choice controlsets, which you can fix in Change Controls.

The default has 3 powers mapped to buttons, and you can pause and select the powers in your pause menu to swap them. (There's a little "press A to swap!" prompt when you highlight a power in the pause menu.)

If you prefer things MMX-style, you can choose "cycle", which makes it so only Power 1 actually shoots anything, and the Power 2/3 keys cycle back and forth.

If you want access to all 8 powers on the fly without having to pause, Wheel does this. It makes it so Power 2 brings up a wheel with all 8 powers on it (or whichever ones you have), which you can then assign to Power 1.

Hope this helps!

i fouund out you can have all 8 by pausing ( I actually had never paused thwe game until today XD )

[Terotrous]

It's also worth noting that level 9 doesn't seem to be very random - I've done it like 4 times and saw almost all the same "level pieces" every time. I'm guessing that because the stage is so absurdly long, it basically runs through its entire piece dictionary every time.

I agree though that it's massively out of line with the rest of the game, though. The fact that there's not even a single solid ground segment is absurd.

[AgentFlea]

It seems I'm in the minority on this.

I absolutely love the length and challenge. It puts my skills to the test and truly feels much harder than the regular levels - as a boss level should be.
Seriously, no other stage tests my platforming the way 9 does.

It's exhilirating finding a temporary safespot before platforming my ass past the next section.

We need more videos of purist runs completing this stage.
To show it's VERY possible completing it without any upgrades.

The regular 4 stages are just more forgiving - so new players hit a difficulty spike on stage 9 That's NOT A BAD THING! >:|

I think people are knee-jerk reacting to the difficulty honestly.

Originally posted by RetroNutcase:

Example: Pulsing beams while on moving platforms, ending with Yoku (Vanishing) blocks. If the Yoku block isn't there yet, you essentially have to try and stall until it is:Oh wait right that pulsing beam is going to hit me and knock me off and make me start all over. *Brilliant*

I love that aspect.

~Pay attention to the pattern before you zoom across everything.
~Time your jumps - Don't just blindly speed through and then complain why you get hit by a laser or there's a missing block

If the block is missing, you stay on the platform as best you can. It's essentially a balancing act as you wait for the right opportunity to jump.



Sucks that it'll probably get a nerf though. I gotta record a few runs so I can demostrate how possible it is without any upgrades.

Lawd people are so damn used to blaming the game as opposed to their mistakes - leading to their deaths. I hate to be one of those guys, but if the original Megaman and X games came out today, and had a forum. I guarantee plenty of people will complain and end up nerfing the endgame and bosses. Especially Sigma


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I mean, do you guys realize, that by it being super difficult (as an end-game should be) It creates a much more awesome and rewarding feeling when you finally do beat it?

Does anybody remember that feeling of accomplishment? Or nah, they just want to get past the stage easier as if the game wasn't a Roguelike. It's demoralizing yo =\

What you call frustratingly challenging I call exhiliratingly fun! Yet with enough practice, there's room to improve and you too can know the feeling of accomplishment overcoming something hard! >=D

Alright, end mini-rant.

[Terotrous]

Originally posted by Aegis:

The regular 4 stages are just more forgiving - so new players hit a difficulty spike on stage 9 That's NOT A BAD THING! >:|

It is though. Difficulty spikes are generally bad game design, especially in a game where you're forced to finish the entire game in one run. Such a game should be about consistency, not "how good you are at one very specific part of the game". Having to do 40 minutes worth of gameplay that basically doesn't matter to challenge the one hard part of the game again is just lame and frustrating.

If I play the first 8 levels really well, I should be at least virtually guaranteed to finish stage 9. Maybe if I play stage 9 badly I might be in bad shape for stage 10, but it shouldn't be the case that my entire run comes to a screeching halt on that stage every time, regardless of how well it's gone up to that point. That's just silly.

Originally posted by Aegis:

I mean, do you guys realize, that by it being super difficult (as an end-game should be) It creates a much more awesome and rewarding feeling when you finally do beat it?

I've already beaten it. It didn't feel rewarding at all. I just cheesed it with hoverboots, which is really the only viable strategy.

The game would feel rewarding at the end if it felt like your entire run mattered, but due to the difficulty not ramping up properly, it really doesn't. There's 8 trivial stages followed by hoverboots or gtfo and then one last test of the final boss and that's it. Perhaps hard mode would provide a more consistent challenge, but the presense of stage 9 makes me not even want to contemplate hard mode, because again, it's way too far out of line with everything else.

[Sairek Ceareste]

For the record, level 10 used to be just like level 9, but I suggested at least one be a platformy segment, while the other be more combat oriented.

Level 9 is tough, but level 10 is a nice repreive from level 9. Killing the enemies can give you a chance to restore health and energy from popping foes which you may need after the definitely-not-easy Level 9 boss, which helps players set up for the definitely-even-harder level 10 boss.

I'd think maybe shorten level 9 a tiny bit, but not too much, but enough where it doesn't feel like it drags on even if you're succeeding. And maybe add a couple more solid pieces of land at the end of every segment or two, as sometimes segments kind of string together and one mis step/being blind-sided by a foe can mean spending another minute doing the same platforming section all over again.

But otherwise, I think the difficulty should remain in tact.


In the case of more level sections that should be added, well, I can always boot up the level editor again and make some whenever I get time to help out I guess. But I think Chris plans to make a much easier level editor so maybe it'd be better to wait so it'll be easier and probably higher quality than what I could make in what tools we've got right now.