so this is one of those "lose everything after you die" type of games ?

[BigEffinZed]

why is every 2-D platform games "rogue-like" these days ? I was so excited to see a real Megaman successor until I read further. seems like every other platform games, with random generated levels, and let me guess, somewhere in the map a room with merchant selling upgrades.
why can't we just have another game like Axiom Verge, where the map DON'T change. and you KEEP every upgrades ?

[KaZudra]

The Random elements aren't too random to the point where the game screws you over.
You get a pre-post-game currency where you can buy permanent upgrades, new upgrades, and a few to start a new run on.

The polish of this game is clear, and the challanges are all do-able, the only thing you really gotta bring to the table is skill.

[Cirom]

Originally posted by BigEffinZed:

why can't we just have another game like Axiom Verge, where the map DON'T change. and you KEEP every upgrades ?

We do. Mighty Gunvolt Burst recently released, Shovel Knight is arguably one of the best games inspired by Mega Man in recent days and, if we're going a bit further from Mega Man here, there's also games like Blaster Master Zero, Spark the Electric Jester, Shantae: Half Genie Hero and Freedom Planet.

Really though, there are already many, many games like that where there are preset levels, preset upgrades and once you're done, you're done. However, I challenge you to name another Mega Man-style game that's a roguelite. They're not as "everywhere" as people make them out to be.

[Sairek Ceareste]

If 20XX had only a couple set levels and only offered a couple bits of replayability, I would have been done playing after a couple hours instead of the 300+ hours I've played.

If it's not your cup of tea, that's okay. But don't start complaining about what other people like in their cup of tea please just because it's not what you like.


Besides, when/if modding support comes out, I'm sure a permanent upgrade system is going to literally be one of the first thing that someone makes.

[limelight1210]

I'm not a huge fan of the Rogue likes but this game grew on me...At first when I read about random generated levels I was thinking the same thing like oh the level design probably sucks... But it's little things that change and it doesn't break the flow of levels.
Also, there are permanent upgrades you can get to further help you out in later playthoughs, so that should be encouraging to play the game more-
it was in my case. Not to mention items you can buy to assist for your next playthough, which helps a lot too.
It's not like an old Atari 2600 game where once you die you start over from scratch. Every. Single. Time.

[derw4tz]

levels are not that random altough the skill ceyling is high; really good actionplatformer; every megaman game can be beat in an hour (talking 1-6) this is just the same system with the level not getting that repetitive

[Darkness]

For Mega Man X fans that replayed the same game many times in the past, having it procedural was something we couldn't even dream of back in the days.

If you want to keep fighting a fixed pattern you still can, just use the seeded game mode, and keep using the same seed forever, but you'll actually be losing the real fun of the game.

Roguelikes/roguelites is the main "genre" that relies on randomized runs for fun, but there were older games that featured random level generation pretty much like 20XX have, for example, the classic Diablo itself! There were also other games have featured even more random events and so on, like Oregon Trail.

[BigEffinZed]

Originally posted by Darkness:

For Mega Man X fans that replayed the same game many times in the past, having it procedural was something we couldn't even dream of back in the days.

If you want to keep fighting a fixed pattern you still can, just use the seeded game mode, and keep using the same seed forever, but you'll actually be losing the real fun of the game.

Roguelikes/roguelites is the main "genre" that relies on randomized runs for fun, but there were older games that featured random level generation pretty much like 20XX have, for example, the classic Diablo itself!

a FIXED level game requires more design and creativity on the developers part. not saying Rogue likes should be extinct altogether, but I feel like a lot of games uses the "Roguelike" element so they don't have to actually design the map. it just feels lazy to me. a game can be good and have a fixed map, Axiom Verge is one example, it shows the creator took his time designing the maps and how they interconnects each other, and secrets and hidden area too.

[Sairek Ceareste]

Originally posted by BigEffinZed:

Originally posted by Darkness:

For Mega Man X fans that replayed the same game many times in the past, having it procedural was something we couldn't even dream of back in the days.

If you want to keep fighting a fixed pattern you still can, just use the seeded game mode, and keep using the same seed forever, but you'll actually be losing the real fun of the game.

Roguelikes/roguelites is the main "genre" that relies on randomized runs for fun, but there were older games that featured random level generation pretty much like 20XX have, for example, the classic Diablo itself!

a FIXED level game requires more design and creativity on the developers part. not saying Rogue likes should be extinct altogether, but I feel like a lot of games uses the "Roguelike" element so they don't have to actually design the map. it just feels lazy to me. a game can be good and have a fixed map, Axiom Verge is one example, it shows the creator took his time designing the maps and how they interconnects each other, and secrets and hidden area too.

The guys wanted to make a Megaman X game with random elements. Not just a Megaman X game.

Considering all of the levels are building blocks, pre-made level sections that were hand-made and then are just played together like lego pieces, to say no level design goes into make these pieces is actually kind of insulting, because not only do the pieces have to be good on their own standards, but they have to made to not always be exactly the same AND fit seemlessly with the other pieces. In other words, you have to design a level block that's not linear and can branch a lot. This is not easy to do well and in my opinion is even more challenging than just making a straight up linear level.

I've tried both, a linear level with Super Mario World, and then tried making a level piece for 20XX itself. 20XX was way harder to do because there's so many more factors you have to think of, as the level pieces can be used at any point in a run, so it has to be simple enough for early game, but should be complex and simple enough for the late game as well.


There's a level editor for 20XX that Superfriends have access to. I'd suggest you try signing up for it, cracking the level editor open, trying to make your own level (and trying to make it actually good -- no Kaizou Mario gimmicks), and then come back here and try saying the same thing again.

[Darkness]

Originally posted by BigEffinZed:

a FIXED level game requires more design and creativity on the developers part.

Of course. There is an ongoing discussion everywhere about this. The "winner" is actually using "both" - fixed parts, mixed with random parts, but not everygame can do that properly.

The best thing about procedural design is that you can't memorize it, so it's refreshing and increases replayability - which is the main goal for roguelites, where you must have lots of runs.

Originally posted by BigEffinZed:

not saying Rogue likes should be extinct altogether, but I feel like a lot of games uses the "Roguelike" element so they don't have to actually design the map. it just feels lazy to me.

I wouldn't say it's impossible that a part of roguelites are the way they are for laziness. But not everyone, there're plenty roguelites that are amazing.

For instance, level design in 20XX is not "entirely random", or the platforming wouldn't make sense or be fun. It's basically a pool of handcrafted segments that are randomized and put together in a logical way. So you can feel it has good design, it's challenging, make sense, and it's fun.

It's not a poor random number generator that just places things randomly... there're only a few roguelites that do it that way, and they end up having lots of problems (unreachable places, being stuck and so on).

Originally posted by BigEffinZed:

a game can be good and have a fixed map

Of course, but as pointed out by others, the fun of the roguelite design is having an infinite number of maps, and the most practical way to do so is having they procedurally generated.

At first I wasn't a fan of roguelites, I got hooked at first by Rogue Legacy (which doesn't do it right, but the design is friendly enough to get you), then I found 20XX and "tolerated" the roguelite aspects because I loved Mega Man. Then it grew on me. Then finally, Dead Cells made me love roguelites even more (the part of permadeath), so nowadays I don't even get angry at dying, just have fun, specially when I notice my skill increasing.

[Jauder le Bonette]

You know, when those games create something cohesive with their generation? Nope, here we just have "challenge blocks", a bunch of conveyors over lasers, for example, that don't change at all every run, only their position in the level changes. Also there are enemies, mostly bats that spawn wherever the desire to and will follow you everywhere and some static turrets. Bats just gain more mobility the longer your run is. So, you are basically playing megaman where screen order is always random and enemies are placed haphazardly. Oh, and it looks like flash in 2000th.

Sounds boring already? Yeah, it is.

[Sairek Ceareste]

Originally posted by That's way better.:

You know, when those games create something cohesive with their generation? Nope, here we just have "challenge blocks", a bunch of conveyors over lasers, for example, that don't change at all every run, only their position in the level changes. Also there are enemies, mostly bats that spawn wherever the desire to and will follow you everywhere and some static turrets. Bats just gain more mobility the longer your run is. So, you are basically playing megaman where screen order is always random and enemies are placed haphazardly. Oh, and it looks like flash in 2000th.

Sounds boring already? Yeah, it is.

If you can't understand why it's fun, then that's unfortunate.

I however enjoy being able to play the same game a different way every single time as many times as I like without it getting stale. A puzzle is only challenging once, and then it isn't again unless you completely forget how to do it.

If you don't like it though, then I don't see why you are even here considering you don't even own the game.


Go play Hollow Knight or something. That seems to be the kind of game you're looking for.

[Mann Time]

Originally posted by That's way better.:

You know, when those games create something cohesive with their generation? Nope, here we just have "challenge blocks", a bunch of conveyors over lasers, for example, that don't change at all every run, only their position in the level changes. Also there are enemies, mostly bats that spawn wherever the desire to and will follow you everywhere and some static turrets. Bats just gain more mobility the longer your run is. So, you are basically playing megaman where screen order is always random and enemies are placed haphazardly. Oh, and it looks like flash in 2000th.

Sounds boring already? Yeah, it is.

...You don't even _own_ the game, man.

[Chad "The King" ThunderCuck]

not much randomization TBH. the maps seem to exist as blocks that get shuffled up in a semi random order. havent played much yet but even so far ive noticed that whenever i go through an area then go through another of the same level/type, it starts exactly the same and ends exactly the same, with a very slight shuffeling of the in between, and a random placement and selection of enemies that dosent really matter as ace can just grab dat axe and spin slash his way through everything in normal mode instantly.

edit: oh yeah, the items are random. in that its random if youre gonna get any or not. other than that you find the exact same thing over and over on a run.

[Mr. Christmas]

Originally posted by Darkness:

For Mega Man X fans that replayed the same game many times in the past, having it procedural was something we couldn't even dream of back in the days.

If you want to keep fighting a fixed pattern you still can, just use the seeded game mode, and keep using the same seed forever, but you'll actually be losing the real fun of the game.

Roguelikes/roguelites is the main "genre" that relies on randomized runs for fun, but there were older games that featured random level generation pretty much like 20XX have, for example, the classic Diablo itself! There were also other games have featured even more random events and so on, like Oregon Trail.

...did.. did you jsut claim Diablo was older than rogee-alikes?

[Darkness]

Originally posted by Victor Ziblis:

...did.. did you jsut claim Diablo was older than rogee-alikes?

I'm aware the original rogue is much older, I'm refering to the recent roguelike/roguelite fever in the indie industry.