Cheating.

[Astar]

Recently it has come to my attention that some sort of cheat software (I have no idea what it is called or how to get it, but I played with someone who had it) can be used for this game to essentially gain an infinite amount of tokens in the... what is it called? Outpost... Lobby? Whatever. This ruins the game, as the first slot machine you find makes you a literally unkillable god. I really don't know how much can be done about this for you devs who have the power to change the game...

But ffs. I don't even understand how you can play it. Sitting there for 30 mins just to get tokens and then another however long to get all the damn power-ups (Even when I take my time, my runs don't last 30 mins [ahem.. that's without skulls...])... I literally quit. I won't play a game that way. I had no idea such a cheat could work in 20XX, and I want NO ♥♥♥♥ing part of it. I play games the way they were meant to be played. No exploits by taking apart cartridges to find code put in games and ♥♥♥♥ with it, no cheat codes (maybe in Conker's Bad Fur Day, just to unlock all the characters in multiplayer... I really loved that game on N64), nothing. If I can't beat a game, I can't beat it. To this day, I don't think a game exists that I haven't been able to beat this way. If one did... I probably wouldn't play it. (Just so you know, I am a huge Dark Souls fan... I haven't played #2 yet, but have beaten 1 and 3 multiple times... I'd recommend #1, as it is the best Dark Souls experience a human being can have. btw, this includes the MMX games, where you can boomerang blade yourself to the end of a level in storm eagle, or ice slide into armadillo in the sigma stages to skip him, wtfever. i can beat mmx2 in 45 mins or maybe slightly less without cheats. THIS ALSO INCLUDES ZELDA 2: LINK'S ADVENTURE. YEAH. I. DON'T. NEED. TO. CHEAT. To me, it's shameful.)

I have said this before, and it includes a pretty large amount of personal bias, but still... This game is a friggin' godsend. (I don't really believe in "God" the way most people do, but I still friggin' pray for you guys. Seriously... I don't think there is a game in my Steam library I have put anywhere close to HALF the time I have spent on this game, other than Cave Story... I won't count a multiplayer FPS in this category). I don't want its integrity to be ruined. If there is ANYTHING you can do... Please do it. If not.. Well... People gon' cheat. What can you do....

[Darkness]

Well, you can use a simple "memory editor" in most games to cheat almost anything, and by default, it'll usually work, unless some sort of anti-cheating measure is done.

Regarding the cheaters, well, there're a big category of people that are prone to that. To be honest, when I started playing PC games in my childhood, I always used cheat codes in games. I worked a little time in a LAN House, and anyone playing GTA there was certainly cheating. And so on.

Cheating itself may not be a problem. I mean, if a person has a game, and can't play it properly for whatever reason, I'm not against them using whatever means they can to be able to have fun. Just remember that anyone may have fun doing whatever they can, so each to their own...

That would be true always, EXCEPT when your fun is ruining another person's fun. So, cheating in multiplayer is unaceptable this way. That's mainly the one reason I stopped playing PAYDAY2 back in the day... cheating once, ok, it's fun, look at that, but cheating so frequently on other people's games took out the fun for me, as it was rare to find a non-cheating game. And that was a coop games as well, but of course, cheating in a versus game is much worse.

Of course, you can always ruin the leaderboard scores by cheating as well. Most indie games suffers from that, as well as some AAA games on occasion.

That's why devs have to lose a nice time preventing cheating on multiplayer games, time which could be dedicated towards something more useful, if such thing didn't existed.

[Astar]

Originally posted by Darkness:

That would be true always, EXCEPT when your fun is ruining another person's fun.

I guess this is why my reaction was a little extreme. I didn't have FUN.

Originally posted by Darkness:

Of course, you can always rune the leaderboard scores by cheating as well

This is the problem. If someone can cheat in the normal game, someone will figure out how to cheat on the leaderboards (I won't specify, as in my original post. I'm not out to ♥♥♥♥ on a person, just maintain the integrity of the game. "Cheating" has been done before on the leaderboards in a different fashion... Using something you described yourself, Darkness). I don't participate in these nearly as much as I used to, for various reasons... But I would hate to think that someone "accomplished" something "greater" than me by using some sort of exploit. If someone is better at the game (Sourpowerpete, Epicwindow, LVL99, etc..) I can handle that; even more than handling it, I can accept it, as these people have put HUNDREDS of hours into the game (I have 300+ myself). With a game like this, it's almost impossible to consistently be the best. I LOVE that.

Is cheating inevitable? Probably... At the same time, taking efforts to minimize this (IMO) would be nothing but beneficial to the game.

[LVL99]

I have used a memory editor in 20XX in single player before (whether to goof around, make the game harder, check out hidden items, etc.). I haven't tried it in Challenge runs, but I bet it's just as easy to do it there, so anti-cheating measures for Challenge runs would be great. The game could regularly perform checks during a run whether your current stats/score match with what you have actually done (items you have picked up, amount of enemies you have killed etc.). If something doesn't add up, your score is registered as zero (or even funnier, become a negative number). That should make it a lot harder to cheat. I don't know how well that would work in multiplayer though.

I would also love to have a rapid fire check implemented in Challenge runs. You don't even need a memory editor, but Nina being able to kill a Soul Gamma enemy within 1 or 2 seconds at close range is tantamount to cheating. Her weapon should just jam for a couple of seconds if the attack button has been pressed a ridiculously high number of times during a short interval.

[Darkness]

Originally posted by ydg?!:

This is the problem. If someone can cheat in the normal game, someone will figure out how to cheat on the leaderboards (I won't specify, as in my original post. I'm not out to ♥♥♥♥ on a person, just maintain the integrity of the game. "Cheating" has been done before on the leaderboards in a different fashion... Using something you described yourself, Darkness). I don't participate in these nearly as much as I used to, for various reasons... But I would hate to think that someone "accomplished" something "greater" than me by using some sort of exploit. If someone is better at the game (Sourpowerpete, Epicwindow, LVL99, etc..) I can handle that; even more than handling it, I can accept it, as these people have put HUNDREDS of hours into the game (I have 300+ myself). With a game like this, it's almost impossible to consistently be the best. I LOVE that

I was just trying to discuss the ethics behind cheating, as you opened up the subject... and pretty much overreacted to it. I was trying to hint you that cheating is normal on certain groups, people cheat for different specific reasons, but in the end, they cheat to have fun, whatever the cost.

I didn't really like what you tried to imply, no need to try to reach me like that for nothing. But honestly, I'd never care about any leaderboard, first of all because I'm not really a competitive person, and I guess in my age I should really have other priorities in my life, other than dedicating myself to a game to prove I'm better than others or whatever, but I get why people do that, and well, I try not to judge it too harshly as I tend to.

Originally posted by LVL99:

I would also love to have a rapid fire check implemented in Challenge runs. You don't even need a memory editor, but Nina being able to kill a Soul Gamma enemy within 1 or 2 seconds at close range is tantamount to cheating. Her weapon should just jam for a couple of seconds if the attack button has been pressed a ridiculously high number of times during a short interval.

Yeah, would be nice, but even if it had a ceiling set, well, people could still use that number as a set value and benefit from it altogether to some extent.

To be honest, mashing on the mouse button with a single finger, I can reach 11 presses per second legitimately, but of course I'd never do a similar thing for extended periods, and doing that while playing the game I'd need to hold the controller on a table and forget about the rest of the controls to reach something like that, but on an arcade joystick (if I had one) it's totally doable... at least 8 button presses per second is fine with a proper setup. The only real and fair solution is invulnerability frames for everything, and yet, people could get that magic number between invunerability frames and set their autofire to that, to still benefinit a little from it!

Regarding rapid fire, I've actually made a run using third-party software experimenting autocharging/autofire (and recorded it: http://steamcommunity.com/app/322110/discussions/0/1319961868324645781/#c1319961868334924805 ) and to some extent it really makes the game much easier. As I argued there, I actually defend such things should be built-in, but noneless, disable the leaderboard scoring, as any sort of assistance is a "cheat" for that purpose.

[Nanaki Wolf]

ydg?!, as much as I feel that your reaction was a little over the top, I understand where you're coming from. It's not fair that somebody else should be able to ruin your enjoyment of the game.

However, as Darkness has touched upon, cheating isn't black and white. People use those memory editors and whatnot that he mentioned for a myriad of reasons.

I personally use them to make single player games harder. Given you like Megaman, you might be familiar with the DS Castlevanias. When you beat Portrait of Ruin or Order of Ecclesia, you have the ability to start a "Level 1" game where your character never gets more powerful. That option is not available in Dawn of Sorrow... so I wrote a code to set the EXP enemies give to 0, effectively allowing a Level 1 game. It was an extreme challenge, and I loved every minute of it. I can also say without ego that I am literally one of the only people in the world to have done that challenge.

Another reasonable use of cheating would be to save time. Imagine a game where you could only save in certain places. One such place was in the middle of a very large town, which had no threat anywhere. Why not use a savestate just outside the danger zone at the edge of town, so if you need to reload, you don't have to run through the town again? Doesn't in any way affect the game, just makes it quicker.

On the other hand, we have people cheating by using glitches in speedrunning games. Like Sonic Generations. The times for Chemical Plant are seemingly impossible, because the people at the top of the leaderboards use a glitch which skips half the level. In my mind, that's unfair, since it forces everybody who wants to get the best times to abuse a glitch that shouldn't occur. This is them cheating in a solo game, but impacting on the fun of other people.

I appreciate that different people have different perspectives on what is and is not okay with regards to cheats. In my mind, so longs as the person cheating doesn't in any way affect another person, there's no problem. If they do, then it's unacceptable and wrong. Of course, no doubt people will have arguements for and against that.

Whatever way you think of things though, cheating is going to happen; regardless of motivation. Particularly of late, people typically feel that if they own the game, they should be able to do what the want with it. By using the anticheat systems that Darkness alluded to, that would restrict what people can and can't do, and there absolutely will be complaints. The only reasonable middle ground would be to have cheat detection only in multiplayer or game modes with leaderboards. For example, having a counter of how many tokens a person should have, and booting a player if it doesn't add up at the start of a level.

[Darkness]

Originally posted by Nanaki Wolf:

Another reasonable use of cheating would be to save time. Imagine a game where you could only save in certain places. One such place was in the middle of a very large town, which had no threat anywhere. Why not use a savestate just outside the danger zone at the edge of town, so if you need to reload, you don't have to run through the town again? Doesn't in any way affect the game, just makes it quicker.

Yeah, specially since emulation, this became pretty much normal for most people. I remember using save states on boss fight in Final Fantasy 4 the first time I finished it, saving between each hit to prevent a wipe... lol. Felt like a casino.

Originally posted by Nanaki Wolf:

The only reasonable middle ground would be to have cheat detection only in multiplayer or game modes with leaderboards. For example, having a counter of how many tokens a person should have, and booting a player if it doesn't add up at the start of a level.

Indeed, those are fair design choices. I remember lots of people being banned on GTA 5 by having single-player mods installed and launching multiplayer... so there's even that, false detections that could somehow harm people in wrong situations as well. This kind of protection as to be thought pretty well to target what's wrong, and not target what's right. But in the end, it's pretty much like anti-spam filter in emails, or an antivirus software: there's always a false positive, and there's always one that gets through.

And again, it will still harm everyone else, as time/money spent on these measures means less time/money spent on the gameplay and overall content.

[Nanaki Wolf]

Originally posted by Darkness:

Indeed, those are fair design choices. I remember lots of people being banned on GTA 5 by having single-player mods installed and launching multiplayer... so there's even that, false detections that could somehow harm people in wrong situations as well. This kind of protection as to be thought pretty well to target what's wrong, and not target what's right. But in the end, it's pretty much like anti-spam filter in emails, or an antivirus software: there's always a false positive, and there's always one that gets through.

And again, it will still harm everyone else, as time/money spent on these measures means less time/money spent on the gameplay and overall content.

Yeah, anticheat measures need to be very carefully considered, since it's so easy to get them wrong.

It rather puts me in mind of PSO, which I used to play on a private server when its original maker literally abandoned it. The server had an issue with a group that would constantly try to crash it (DDoS attacks etc), and then later on that group would hack items and mess up the economy of the game.

To counter that, the Admins came up with "antihack.dll". I'm not entirely sure how it worked, but it seemed to scan your active windows. If it read any word even related to cheating, memory, editting, etc., it would force-close the game and the program that triggered it.

Boy was that messed up.

It caused innocent people to have their games crash, and it took away time from making gameplay improvements for the server.

Yup... attempting blanket removal of cheating just doesn't work.

Unfortunately, some people do find enjoyment out of malicious cheating. They find enjoyment in cheating to mess up other peoples fun. The only way of stopping that is to actively put in anti-cheating methods to stop them. That tars everybody with the same brush, which isn't fair.

It means that the only real solution to this is for people to just find what enjoyment they can in the game. If somebody else messes with that enjoyment, then deal with it and move on. Fortunately, such malicious people are in the vast minority.

Anyway, I'll stop it there unless ydg?! replies. I know how touchy people can get regarding cheating etc, and I don't want to derail the topic. lol

[BananaBadman]

I don't understand why people would even care for a game like this. Cheating in Payday, COD, Overwatch, and other mandatory online games is obviously bad but cheating in a game like this? Who really cares? Mind your own business.

Yeah your leaderboards may get screwy. Not that big of a deal, but detection measures could be made to ban people from leaderboard submission if shady gameplay is detected. Outside of that, why care what someone does in their own game? They bought it, let them do what they want with it. Cheating in multiplayer? Just don't play with them, simple. Multiplayer isn't forced in this game, thus cheating is a non-issue.

[zhekichan]

pizdec hyevы chiterы

[♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥]

Originally posted by LVL99:

I have used a memory editor in 20XX in single player before (whether to goof around, make the game harder, check out hidden items, etc.). I haven't tried it in Challenge runs, but I bet it's just as easy to do it there, so anti-cheating measures for Challenge runs would be great. The game could regularly perform checks during a run whether your current stats/score match with what you have actually done (items you have picked up, amount of enemies you have killed etc.). If something doesn't add up, your score is registered as zero (or even funnier, become a negative number). That should make it a lot harder to cheat. I don't know how well that would work in multiplayer though.

I would also love to have a rapid fire check implemented in Challenge runs. You don't even need a memory editor, but Nina being able to kill a Soul Gamma enemy within 1 or 2 seconds at close range is tantamount to cheating. Her weapon should just jam for a couple of seconds if the attack button has been pressed a ridiculously high number of times during a short interval.

I like the first paragraph's suggestions, but I'm not a fan of a second. Either the "button presses per second" would be so high that it wouldn't accomplish anything, or it'll start flagging the really good lemon spammers. At this point, I have a legitimate reason to believe that I'd get flagged by a macro checker =P
https://youtu.be/kl9ByZJurnw

[Zero]

Before this thread goes into the ethics of cheating, some clarifications are required. In all likelihood, my save-editing guide is what happened here. Two important points:

1. You cannot use this to gain an advantage in Challenge Runs.
   
   
2. I have asked Chris if he was ok with this in the past. He told me as long as the Challenge Runs aren't affected, he's fine with it.

There's an important distinction here between hex-editing and memory-editing. This is the former. Which is why it doesn't work in challenges.

Aside from custom runs, I have used this - and even memory-editing - to create isolated testing environments. I've found many bugs this way.

That said, I don't have a problem with taking 65535 tokens in co op. No need to limit how people have fun.

[Sairek Ceareste]

Originally posted by LVL99:

I would also love to have a rapid fire check implemented in Challenge runs. You don't even need a memory editor, but Nina being able to kill a Soul Gamma enemy within 1 or 2 seconds at close range is tantamount to cheating. Her weapon should just jam for a couple of seconds if the attack button has been pressed a ridiculously high number of times during a short interval.

How high are we talking, though?

I mean I can hit a button on average REALLY fast than most people. Like VERY fast.

Like, here's proof of how fast:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QELwI66OlU



In fact, I was probably limited to how fast I was firing because 3 pellets were on screen at the same time despite the close distance I was generally firing the buster.

To be outted as a cheater or being punished because you can push a button 'too fast' in my opinion just sounds really weird and silly. The idea of the game is to destroy enemies as fast as you can, especially in a challenge run. Having to space out my button presses or fire fast... but not TOO fast, buggers up that notion entirely.

[Astar]

Okay, I wasn't out to attack anyone, just bring it to the attention of anyone who wanted to input their thoughts (more specifically the devs) and obviously that worked. Sorry if you felt otherwise. <3 I can get a little hot-headed sometimes ;p

[LVL99]

@Sairek and Sour
Geez, what do you guys eat? That does indeed look like rapid fire to me.

Naturally, I wouldn't want the game to flag real people who can actually press this fast, but there must be a limit of what's physiologically possible. I put together a video to illustrate my point. Not sure if you'd also consider this cheating, but I hope we can agree that most of this wouldn't be possible without a rapid fire tool:
https://youtu.be/DbTzyv3IyUI

Throw in two or three Zephyrs and Nina's lemon spams look like she's throwing spears at enemies. If there is no anti-rapid-fire measure in the game, nothing stops players from having a dedicated button for rapid fire attacks that they can use at close range.

I don't know how you would have to implement an anti-rapid-fire measure in 20XX, but you could either set a ceiling or check whether a button is being pressed continuously at the same interval. I mean, how likely is it that someone presses the same button five times with exactly 5 frames between each press. However, this check can probably be circumvented by writing an autohotkey script that randomizes the time interval between each button press (= randomized press every 2, 3 or 4 frames for example).

I know I once played a game that must have had some rapid fire check. You had to fill a bar or something by pressing a button really fast. However, if you tried using rapid fire it wouldn't work, the bar just wouldn't fill up. I currently don't remember which game that was though.

[♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥]

Originally posted by LVL99:

I put together a video to illustrate my point. Not sure if you'd also consider this cheating, but I hope we can agree that most of this wouldn't be possible without a rapid fire tool:

If a player uses an outside program to exceed their own limits/skill, than it is absolutely cheating. I only spoke up because assuming "Well no one could fire this fast, right?" is not the right way to go about it. At the speed we're firing at, you basically have to tense your muscles in a way that makes your whole hand vibrate. When you're doing that as well as Sairek is, it might even be possible to trigger the "time interval between shots" checker, but I don't have a way of testing that I'm afraid.