Optimize Mesh

[ChallAcc]

I'm currently umming and ahhing about buying this program, but I have a question.

I'm playing with the demo, and I have a 3D Coat model that's around 2 million polys. I use the poly reduction tool to scale this back to about 500k, which is great, but I'm seeing a lot of wasted polys, which I imagine will result in annoying UVs. Some areas of my mesh have a perfectly flat surface, which should really be made up of 1 poly, but instead is made up of about 15.

Now, I could go in manually and fix this up, but that would take ages. It's very complex (The original mesh is almost 10 million polys within 3D Coat).

Is there a built in tool that will optimize the mesh based on angles? So the system will recognize where it can make the mesh more efficient and make the change for me?

Thanks in advance for any help!

[Marc Albrecht]

Moin, unknown anonymous,

> Is there a built in tool that will optimize the mesh based on angles?

probably not in the way you would want it it. There is an optimization tool, but that won't "reflow" the mesh, just fix technical issues.

Then there is the (undocumented, but ancient) command "octree", which will approximate a
new mesh geometry over the surface of your given object with some (not) control over density. It does remind one of an early state of "dynamesh" in zBrush, but with even less control, slower and not exactly optimized. Yet, it does prove usable at times.

I think the main "problem", in a way, is that what you want to achieve is "having modo read your mind". There is no way modo could guess where exactly you would want to have edges flowing over a flat surface (because you intend to deform/transform areas or want to put some heavy displacement on the surface) and where it should reduce detail to ... well, maybe a normal map.
My guess (coming from the 1990s days of 3d) is, that, what you want to do, should be called "retopolizing" your original mesh. modo's retopo tools are really, really good, fast, usable (and a bit tricky when it comes to snapping vertices into space). I think that in many cases you'll be faster doing a good retopo job than fiddling with tools that try to guess where you want to get.
Especially for animation you will WANT to do your own retopo anyway. Well, for GOOD animation, that is.

That said, I cannot hold back from mumbling "one could script some angle-based semi-auto-retopo-stuff maybe", but "scripting" is a Uh-Oh-word in modo Indie.

My 1.95583 cent :)

Marc

[ChallAcc]

Thanks! Had a look around and just found this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM4FSp3ukVA

It appears to do a very good job of reading one's mind :)

Shame it's a script. It's exactly what I want.

I have mainly used MAX in the past, and tried my hand at Blender, but couldn't get over the interface. What Blender DID have, however, was a smart UV tool where it would generate a pretty decent UV fairly quickly and automatically. Does MODO happen to have something like that? I don't really have the time to do it myself, and would rather steer clear of Blender where possible.

[Marc Albrecht]

Hya,

yeah, the tool you linked actually is a script :-D

I am not sure I really got what you're after - what's shown in the video is rather simple geometry. A really complex/detailed sculpt (for example) might be a completely different beast. Sure, you probably won't need to animate (as in "make its mouth talk and have it smirk at me") a desk drawer ... but you *might' want to do something like that with a sculpt of Venom's mother in law.
So, accepting that we may be talking of different requirements here, I stand to "extreme retopo terror!" ...

As for UV tools: Give them a try. I find modo's UV tools quite good, but I have heard from various victims that suffered severely under their performance with more than one polygon. Kidding. "High polygon counts" I mean. It may be one of the many drawbacks of modo's single-thread nature,it does not exactly love shoveling (large amounts of) data. Yet, as far as usability, ease of use and productivity go: Yeah, I like them.

You may know this already, but I keep a video tutorial list for modo tutorials over at the official forums (I don't write there, but I still maintain the list) at http://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/topic.aspx?f=36&t=80320) or, if you prefer a better searchable database version, at http://eglomot.marc-albrecht.de

Marc

[ChallAcc]

Thanks! I'll have a look! My desire to use MODO comes from the ease of modelling, but that'll be later on.

My process at the moment is:

Make a Hard Surface object within 3D Coat
Export to Blender
Generate UV Map in Blender using Smart UV
Export to Substance Painter
Export to 3DS Max to animate (just a simple rotation, no moveable parts) and then render

It's proving to be a chore, but it works. My version of Max is very very old, so I was looking to upgrade to MODO. But at the moment, that decision is looking unlikely.

It looks like I can't generate an automatic UV within MODO, like I can with Blender, so the only thing I'd really be using it for at this stage is rendering.

Regarding the optimize mesh query. Say for example, if I had a cylinder made up of 16 long rectangles and 2 capped ends. Giving me 18 faces total. I then triangulate the object half a dozen times, and I end up with an object that has over 2000 faces. I want a tool in which the system will check the angle of one connecting poly against the other, and if they are exactly the same angle, they will merge. As far as I can tell, there would be no downside to this, unless of course I am working on an organic model... but in that case, you're unlikely to find many polys with the same angle.

My Max version is 2011, so I would have expected this kind of thing would be standard in new programs by now.

Finding it genuinely hard to believe it's not an included, base feature along with the poly reduction tool.

[Marc Albrecht]

Please take this with quite some NaCl, since modo does have functions that I do not know: I _guess_ that, with modo being so extendable by scripts, it hasn't been necessary to include an angle-based automatic polygon-merger yet, so there is none (because, iterating here, it can easily be scripted q.e.d.). modo Indie is "new" (as far as its restrictions go, basically cutting down on the heart of modo, which is: Be extendable by the user).
One can hope that TF learns from constructive feedback like yours: Selling modo as being extendable by scripts as a major advantage (which they did) and then creating a version that is NOT extendable by scripts is an interesting experiment :-)

So I *think* that you would find what you want in the full version by using a script, but right now modo Indie does not allow scripts (this may change to some degree in the future).
It is exactly this kind of workflow (automating "tedious" work by recording a macro, putting some interface around it and have a complete new function in the program within minutes) that, right now, is not available in modo Indie (but in the "full" version).

As for the UV maps: I find the tools "semi-automatic" enough to work "out of the box". Ok, you get to CLICK with the mouse button, but you can get UV maps quickly and even optimize them without too much hassle. I'd give some of Greg Brown's videos on that topic a go. Blender does not like me, so I cannot compare with Blender's (fully automatic?) UV creation, granted. If it does work well for you, why not keep it in the pipeline, and be it just for the UV-ing part.

Maybe some modo professional chimes in and gives some better advice than I can :-)

Marc

[RavenWood]

4Demon, with your example (cylinder), maybe you can try Decimate modifier in Blender and set it to planar.

[ChallAcc]

Thanks Sinyo! Just had a look at a video of the decimate modifier in Blender, and it looks like it does what I need it to do.

Looks like I'll be skipping Modo then, which is a shame. Can't stand Blender :(

Anyway, thanks a lot!

[[RST]Gypsy]

Modo has a real nice merge polygon tool

which if used with mesh clean etc will produce some real nice results

[ChallAcc]

The majorly limited poly count export has made me think twice about the program. The mesh I'm working on at the moment is nearly 1 million polys. Hate programs with stupid limitations. Taking out features is one thing, but actually limiting abilities... nope, I won't subscribe to that.

[Tec Kougeki Youtube]

3dcoat has poly reduction tool like zbrush zremesher. Its not as good as zbrush but only the two of them have production tested autoretopo that actually produce decenet mesh.
And the manual retopo in 3dcoat is a lot better than modo almost as good as topogun.
And you're right the limitation is getting annoying. Not being able to send a modo indie file to another person with modo indie is the biggest limitation there is.

[RavenWood]

4Demon, I think they consider to add scripts into Modo Indie.
Blender Decimate and Remesh is my most used modifier and bring the model back to Modo because of itsTool Pipeline (auto apply, select through), honestly I have less wrist/finger pain when navigating and modeling, maybe just my feeling. For general game assets I think Modo Indie is more than enough, at least for me, my highest polygon count on export is only around 33000.

[ChallAcc]

Yup! Sadly, I'm not using it for game assets, mainly hobby stuff, so the restriction does nothing but limit my imagination.

Thanks for your message, but I will be skipping this program for many reasons. Any paid program should be better than a free version in almost all areas.

[Capt. Ace Reddick]

Hi 4Demon,

I'm the MODO/MARI Indie Advocate. I'm sorry to hear that some of the limitations in MODO Indie are hindering your imagination. We certainly didn't set out to accomplish that. We did however set out to give the greater community professional tool set that many other developers use at a cheaper cost. We have been listening to all of our users feedback on the scripts portion, so please stay tuned as we work hard on our end.

Here is the thing though all of the things you are trying to accomplish within your workflow will work in MODO Indie, it just takes some time to learn the navigation, tools and language that MODO speaks which takes some intent.

I come from a 3DS Max (Intermediate/Expert) and Maya (Basic) background, so I can understand trying to shift your perspective towards another program. Some programs have tools that others don't and some programs do things better than others using a different approach. It all comes down to what we as artists are comfortable with. Somtimes though in order to learn that things are better in another program we have to step outside of our comfort zone. The UV tools in MODO are far better then that of Max and Maya. I can't speak for Blenders wools since I haven't used it yet.

As for fixing the dense mesh you should try MODO's retolpology pen tool. You'd be surprised at how fast you can get with a little practice. We had to some minor limitations on Indie that we felt didn't impact the game asset creation side of things, but also to make sure that the users of MODO full are still protected for their investment.

Having a 100,000 poly limit on exportable meshes, 4k texture resolution limit and no shareable files keeps this to an individual software. You can still work within a small Indie team using the FBX and OBJ formats to move what you need between team members.

I still suggest that you take some more time with MODO if you can. Use the tutorials that Greg Brown (Poly_Pusher) made as they are some of the most solid training materials we have to date and he explains things very well.

If you need anything else please let me know, I'm here to help. We care about this community and are here to support it 100%. I was in London last week for our annual confference so I was a little out of contact, but I'm back now. 8)

[ChallAcc]

Thanks, Blade!

Perhaps my biggest issue here is that I'm not using it for game assets the same way others are.

The model I'm painting in Substance Painter is 1.4 million polys. I will not be using it to import into Unity or any other game engine... I'll be using it to make a cool backdrop or an image for a portfolio. My choices are to spend $999 on MODO 8.1 and get everything, or $10 a month for MODO Indie. Neither packages work for the hobbiest, sadly.

I currently use 3D Coat, which has superb retopo tools, but like I mentioned, as I'm doing this for fun rather than profit, I get nothing back for spending hours following an outline of my (originally 9 million poly) object, before exporting the reduced version. Therefore, I began my search for a 3D program that will allow me press a single button and give me close to the results I want.

Like I said earlier in this thread, I hate Blender. It's navigation is a disaster, it's tools are spread out all over the place, and the UI is a mess. HOWEVER, it has both of the tools I was looking for. Planar Decimater, meaning it can clean up wasted polys, and Smart UV, meaning it can produce a UV map by itself.

I may hate the program, but it does what I need it to do. I'd have been more than happy to subscribe to MODO's 6 month program for just these 2 features, but I have the 801 demo at the moment, and I can't see a way to do it... and that's without the indie limitations restricting import, etc

Using this workflow, I was able to create and texture my model in under 6 hours. However, that involved a lot of stress and trial and error, resulting in my needing to spend 3 weeks learning how to do it. Next time, it'll be faster, but knowing I have to go back to Blender every time is a real pain.

[DasWulf]

4Demon, it sounds like you want a magic program that does all the hard work for you. Some kind of automatic magic button if you will. Sadly, the subject matter doesnt care whether its for hobbyist work or professional work. The workflow contained within is key and its going to require hours of work put into it... you get something out of it by accomplishing a task though a given and often established pipeline.

Much of the workflow also involves working smart, does something need to be 9 million polygons for example? More often than naught... no. You can bake the details onto lower poly objects, use displacement maps...ect The field rewards efficiency.

I dont think relying on an auto UV or retopo is goning to help you much, and I understand wanting to save time but trying to reach for the easy auto buttons will result in poorer work and more problems.

With that speel over, you have some options. Zbrush with Qremesher, 3d Coat with autotopo. You will have to select edge loops and unwrap, but you will get better UVs in the process. All the stuff we do is part trial and error, struggle and more struggle until it becomes second nature. We really cant be picky when it comes to learning new apps IF they have what we need...
ideally you would want to reduce the number of apps needed in a pipeline though.

Both Blender and Modo cover a lot of the workflow (pipeline needs) in one application. Blender is bad with its UI but its not horrible, its just convoluted in some areas and inconsistent in its keymap, its still very usable. In fact, theres a new keymap coming in the next version or two which will standardize the control scheme and make it consistent across the UI...this includes having left mouse select as default. If it has what you need, then really dig in and make it work.

Anyways try to reassess the workflow, simplify it, streamline it, look at baking maps and question how high you really need a mesh to be for what you are using it for. If its hard surface, know how to work with proper edge loops, weighted edges and subd.. this means you can work with a relitively low poly mesh and crank up the subd's for rendering. The 3d coat method is built around retopology of one kind or another, its not a step you can really skip out on.