Calamities Should Not Trigger During Boss Fight

[evancampbell]

Getting hit by a boss & then having a Calamity trigger is not fun. Bosses either shouldn't trigger calamities, or the calamity should just be a buff to the boss or something rather than getting swarmed by other enemies

[The Fish Puncher]

+1
They really shouldn't, there is no value in that mechanic or reason why they should.
This is one of a few reasons why bosses don't feel satisfying at all to fight and need work

[Telzen]

I like the buff boss idea. Screw up during the boss and he gets a buff. Much better than the chaos that happens now. Some chaos is fine and all, but its a little much when trying to fight a boss.

[The Squirmy Wormies]

The first boss has a special calamity (ghost ship thing), I dunno if other bosses do. It's pretty neat, and every time it's happened the boss has gone to a special area to fight in a different arena. Not sure if that's related to the calamity or me running far away from him during it to deal with the ghost ship haha.

[The Fish Puncher]

Originally posted by The Squirmy Wormies:

The first boss has a special calamity (ghost ship thing), I dunno if other bosses do. It's pretty neat, and every time it's happened the boss has gone to a special area to fight in a different arena. Not sure if that's related to the calamity or me running far away from him during it to deal with the ghost ship haha.

The ghost ship isn't a boss specific calamity, that's just one of the possible map calamities in general, no relation to the boss. I've gotten it at random before without ever fighting the boss many times.

[𝔽aɳɱaℝ]

Protips:
-You should not enter a bossfight when you're close to triggering a calamity.
-Or you can trigger it on purpose before going into the fight.
-If it ever does trigger during a bossfight, retreat from the boss and deal with the calamity first.

The game rewards awareness and punishes mistakes. Be aware of threats and deal with them accordingly.

[Telzen]

Originally posted by 𝔽aɳɱaℝ:

Protips:
-You should not enter a bossfight when you're close to triggering a calamity.
-Or you can trigger it on purpose before going into the fight.

The thing with this is that there are only two ways to do that. One is an item, but its locked from buying until you are gnosis 3. And the other is to just try and screw up on purpose somehow, which shouldn't ever be the solution.

[The Fish Puncher]

Originally posted by 𝔽aɳɱaℝ:

Protips:
-You should not enter a bossfight when you're close to triggering a calamity.
-Or you can trigger it on purpose before going into the fight.
-If it ever does trigger during a bossfight, retreat from the boss and deal with the calamity first.

The game rewards awareness and punishes mistakes. Be aware of threats and deal with them accordingly.

Yeah, sorry, but this is a really, really dumb take.
Neither of those things solve the actual underlying issue that it's a bad mechanic. It's not "rewarding awareness and punishing mistakes" - it's straight up bad design and does more harm than it adds. The way calamities in themselves work (actually needing to seek them out for instance as one option to deal with them), just flat out doesn't work in a boss fight. And retreating and going back just breaks up the flow of combat with the boss fight itself, which again, adds nothing of value to it.

This is a pure example of something that doesn't need to exist because it provides no meaningful addition to gameplay in this circumstance, and is not or never will be a good way to add challenge to boss fights in it's current design.

Anything additional being spawned in a boss fight should come from and be triggered by the boss itself within the arena, that's why it's a boss fight to begin with.

[𝔽aɳɱaℝ]

Originally posted by The Fish Puncher:

Originally posted by 𝔽aɳɱaℝ:

Protips:
-You should not enter a bossfight when you're close to triggering a calamity.
-Or you can trigger it on purpose before going into the fight.
-If it ever does trigger during a bossfight, retreat from the boss and deal with the calamity first.

The game rewards awareness and punishes mistakes. Be aware of threats and deal with them accordingly.

Yeah, sorry, but this is a really, really dumb take.
Neither of those things solve the actual underlying issue that it's a bad mechanic. It's not "rewarding awareness and punishing mistakes" - it's straight up bad design and does more harm than it adds. The way calamities in themselves work (actually needing to seek them out for instance as one option to deal with them), just flat out doesn't work in a boss fight. And retreating and going back just breaks up the flow of combat with the boss fight itself, which again, adds nothing of value to it.

This is a pure example of something that doesn't need to exist because it provides no meaningful addition to gameplay in this circumstance, and is not or never will be a good way to add challenge to boss fights in it's current design.

Anything additional being spawned in a boss fight should come from and be triggered by the boss itself within the arena, that's why it's a boss fight to begin with.

"I don't get the mechanic so it adds nothing of value" Except for everyone who do feel it does. Most players like the challenge and risks involved, and having to weigh those decisions. It's preventable, but you decide not too.... so it's bad design?

Calling other people dumb while they're trying to help is a great way to not be taken seriously.

Again: choose your battles. If you're at a disadvantage, don't engage. If you still die, take the loss and try again in a different way. This is how most people get a lot of enjoyment out of the game. If you don't like it you're allowed to, but that doesn't make it "bad game design".

[𝔽aɳɱaℝ]

Originally posted by Telzen:

Originally posted by 𝔽aɳɱaℝ:

Protips:
-You should not enter a bossfight when you're close to triggering a calamity.
-Or you can trigger it on purpose before going into the fight.

The thing with this is that there are only two ways to do that. One is an item, but its locked from buying until you are gnosis 3. And the other is to just try and screw up on purpose somehow, which shouldn't ever be the solution.

Try the relic that allows you to ignore a hit, then trigger a trap. This causes the calamity to trigger, but you don't take any damage.

Edit: Or finding a cursed item and picking it up without cleansing. I usually keep one relic on the map untouched for this purpose.

[The Fish Puncher]

Originally posted by 𝔽aɳɱaℝ:

Originally posted by Telzen:

The thing with this is that there are only two ways to do that. One is an item, but its locked from buying until you are gnosis 3. And the other is to just try and screw up on purpose somehow, which shouldn't ever be the solution.

Try the relic that allows you to ignore a hit, then trigger a trap. This causes the calamity to trigger, but you don't take any damage.

Edit: Or finding a cursed item and picking it up without cleansing. I usually keep one relic on the map untouched for this purpose.

But again, why?
What does having the calamity in a boss fight add of value to the game or to the boss fight? The "solutions" you're suggesting are to play the game differently to avoid an aspect of the game that doesn't add value and could be improved upon.

It's good advice though, but it doesn't make the underlying feedback any less valid. If anything, having to come up with this sort of workarounds proves the underlying point further really that it needs work.

But since apparently you like it, that means everyone has to like it.

""I don't get the mechanic so it adds nothing of value" Except for everyone who do feel it does. Most players like the challenge and risks involved, and having to weigh those decisions. It's preventable, but you decide not too.... so it's bad design?"

Nope, I get the mechanic, it's perfectly clear, and it's not well implemented here. This is what feedback is, when you note a part of a game you think doesn't work well and suggest ways it can be improved upon instead of blanket dismissing it. The "dismissing it as game hard therefore mechanic is perfect" part is a dumb take. Sorry you for some reason take that personally.

[The Fish Puncher]

Let's say even you do keep it, okay. Then instead of just ignoring everything that doesn't work about it and having 2 different seemingly disjointed and conflicting systems you could actually,
* Use it as a form of a gameplay/challenge modifier and let people choose if it does or not
* Actually make it add something to the boss fight itself, for example calamities during a boss fight could trigger unique events instead of random world ones. Say the boss gains a new ability, the arena is affected in some way, a secondary boss shows up to make the fight more interesting.
* Instead of needing to exit the boss arena to find the calamity, you defeat the calamity somehow within the arena, whenever you do you gain something from that, a tipping of scales back the other way of sorts, that could even lead to a risk/reward type scenario where you could be strategic about it.

There is so much more potential here being ignored if you just say it's "fine" because you can play around it in some way.

[𝔽aɳɱaℝ]

You ask why but don't listen to the answer. You literally ignored my whole reply explaining it. You assume nobody likes it and I'm the only one, despite the thousands of positive reviews, constructive feedback and constant love from the community. Something other players see as a challenge, you see as a problem. You don't like the way the game forces you to adapt. 99% of the players do and you call those players dumb. Because yes, that's "constructive criticism". You're the outlier but think you're the only one that "gets it".

You keep believing that. I'm sure that will work out for you.

[Telzen]

Originally posted by 𝔽aɳɱaℝ:

You ask why but don't listen to the answer. You literally ignored my whole reply explaining it. You assume nobody likes it and I'm the only one, despite the thousands of positive reviews, constructive feedback and constant love from the community. You don't like the way the game forces you to adapt. 99% of the players do and you call those players dumb. Because yes, that's "constructive criticism". You're the outlier but think you're the only one that "gets it".

You keep believing that. I'm sure that will work out for you.

People giving the game a positive review doesn't mean they like calamities during boss fights. Them liking the game doesn't mean they think its perfect and shouldn't change in any way. Don't try and use that as a point unless you have some actual data.

[The Fish Puncher]

Originally posted by 𝔽aɳɱaℝ:

You ask why but don't listen to the answer. You literally ignored my whole reply explaining it. You assume nobody likes it and I'm the only one, despite the thousands of positive reviews, constructive feedback and constant love from the community. Something other players see as a challenge, you see as a problem. You don't like the way the game forces you to adapt. 99% of the players do and you call those players dumb. Because yes, that's "constructive criticism". You're the outlier but think you're the only one that "gets it".

You keep believing that. I'm sure that will work out for you.

Why are you so against considering ways to improve the game? I just don't get it.

It's been a pretty common feedback honestly about the calamities system, I've seen it in reviews, quite a few places, and I agree with it. Your argument for it is just, bad and I have nothing else to say to it. And I don't care about the "advice to play around it", the discussion is how might we improve it, what works and what doesn't about it.

I'm not even strictly suggesting remove it as the only option. I'd like to see that sure, but as I said, there's so much MORE they could do with it beyond it's current state. This is also a single player game, not considering allow people to also want to tailor the experience in general further to have the most fun with is just elitist ridiculousness.

It is also just completely silly to suggest that the idea of "leave the boss arena and come back" as something that you should need to do means it's in a good place is sound. That means the exact opposite, that it's **not** in a good place.

[𝔽aɳɱaℝ]

Originally posted by Telzen:

Originally posted by 𝔽aɳɱaℝ:

You ask why but don't listen to the answer. You literally ignored my whole reply explaining it. You assume nobody likes it and I'm the only one, despite the thousands of positive reviews, constructive feedback and constant love from the community. You don't like the way the game forces you to adapt. 99% of the players do and you call those players dumb. Because yes, that's "constructive criticism". You're the outlier but think you're the only one that "gets it".

You keep believing that. I'm sure that will work out for you.

People giving the game a positive review doesn't mean they like calamities during boss fights. Them liking the game doesn't mean they think its perfect and shouldn't change in any way. Don't try and use that as a point unless you have some actual data.

I'm basing my conclusion on public opinion. People praise the difficulty and roguelike-nature of the game. The "data" is all around you, including on Reddit and Youtube. These are people with dozens of hours, so surely they've encountered a boss calamity or two. If everybody hates the calamity during the boss, you'd think there would be ONE other post pointing it out?

But there are none. So yeah. That's my "data". So what's going on here?

Look at it this way:
When people died to a boss calamity, they could've rushed to the web complaining about the mechanic. Instead they probably thought "I might've missed something" and found ways to improve. That's why we don't see those posts. When you learn how to deal with calamities, they're no longer a hassle but instead a risk/reward situation that gives great rewards on dealing with them properly. If you retreat from a boss and deal with the calamity it has a massive chance to drop healing elixers which could be difference between life and death for the actual boss.

I ran into the same thing and know the feeling. So when I saw OP's post I decided to give some advice to players who seemingly didn't know they had these options. However I see now that this was a mistake.