Batteries & other generators

[Gaddy Games]

I start a new & clean topic about batteries & other generators as it comes back often ; i'll link it from the Suggestions OP.
I resume here the needs, constraints and some ideas that were given. Don't hesitate to add some, i'll try to edit this message then.

NEED:

- More various way to get electricity.
- To get electricity in early game at night, in the skylands at night, in the crystal layers before thorium, anywhere fast when building a fast outpost for the night

CONSTRAINTS :

- 1) Those new solution must not replace the hydroelectric generation. Building dams is not easy and challenging but it's very rewarding, interesting and is the main interest of the whole water simulation. Most of solutions that would work in the dirt/rock layer h24, even if requiring a lot of mining, would be prefered by players as they would be more easy to do (but more boring).
- 2) To keep things coherent, simple, intuitive. We cannot adding complex rules that doesn't have a direct visualization in the world
- 3) Technical issue of data storage. In my current systme, each item placed in the world can only store 3 bits of data max, so for example integer value between 0 and 7. That makes the creation of some very long counter, or very high value counter, very difficult.

More globally, to respect those constraints and be challenging/interesting, generators would usualy need to use the global simulations that are made in the world: the water, the lava, the forces on buildings, the electricity and the lights

IDEAS:

- One simple point would be to make the use of Lightonium with solar panels easier to understand by players, a lot of them don't think about powering bases there with solar panels (as it's not that intuitive).

- Batteries: 1st issue is that they would replace the hydroelectric generators usage, even if they require a lot of ingredients to be crafted. 2nd issue is the battery value data storage, technically difficult (cf. Constraints #2)

- Consumable batteries: those batteries could be used only one time, useful for "panic time" when player didn't get back to the base. Issue is the battery value data storage.

- Consumable generators: same as consumable batteries ; issue is the time counter data storage. It could be solved by being destroyed automatically at sunrise, even in inventory, but that would feel quite strange (Contrainst #1)

- Refuelable generators: similar to the consumable generator, main issue is the fuel quantity data storage.

- Geothermal generators using depth (temperature delta): would be very hard to do and visualize without water pipes, and temperature visualization

- Geothermal generators using lava: lava is designed to be the ultimate danger (although some hardcore players manage to master it ^^), really not an energy producer

- Wind turbines: would be either static and constant (and so would replace the water generation) or variable, but that would be very unintuitive as I don't simulate the wind, and uncontrollable/unpredictable.

- Water generator: it would produce electricy by evaporating (a lot of) water. Problem is that it would replace the dam generator

- A generator that would use monsters in some way ? Problem is that monsters are simulated only locally around players, so it wouldn't work far from them.

- (thanks matheod!). A "uncontrolled nuclear reactor" or something like that, that produce some electricy for some time (a few minutes), and then breaks. It cannot be moved, repaired or miniaturized without breaking. Technically its lifetime is its HP, and it looses it regularly with time.
This reactor would let player have a backup power for a night, or to teleport out from a dangerous place, but wouldn't replace water generators because of its short lifespan

[verdant!]

Is it possible we could be able to craft some kind of refuelable generator powered by the light crystals? Let's say a generator produces 1 unit of power when fueled by a blue energy gem, and it could last for a day or so before running out. I mean, they are called "energy" gems, it kinda makes sense there could be a way to use them as a power source. Of course it would have to be balanced so that they don't replace dams alltogether, but they could be helpful for quickly powering a base in a pinch, for example if you got stuck unerground and can't make it up by night. I dunno, just an idea.

[Gaddy Games]

- Refuelable generators are also a possible solution, similar to the consumable generators. Problem is they should only serve as a temporary energy boost (but that's still very useful), and the technical issue is the same. I'll add it to the list

[muchaboutnothin]

What about something that resembles hamster wheel or firefly in a jar power? A cage or apparatus that you can put a captured local creature in. One that the creature powers by movement and or one that is powered by the energy output of the creature. You get power crystals from the firefly type why not say they give off some sort of power that is collectable once they are captured. It is scalable in that you need harder to get materials to create a better cages for the higher level units and they create more power.

[matheod]

Idea :

- Battery losing a % over the time, i.e. a lots of loss of energy so not using them is better.

- Special enemy spawning only when there is more than X of an energy generator and targeting them (so it is safe to have a few to start, but does not work for long term).

- You could health to store battery data :
Health = base health + energy level

Monster who attack it would drain it life, consuming energy from battery would also drain life, feeding it with energy would increase it life, etc. We can imagine the battery deploying a shield force field, thus consuming energy when getting attacked. Repair gun would only repair if health < base health, and battery would only deliver energy if health > base health.

[Gaddy Games]

@muchaboutnothin: it's interesting but it in fact it doesn't change that much for the other systems, it's something you craft from materials or monsters kills

@matheod: very interesting suggestions, especially the 2 & 3 (the 1st just adds another difficulty to implement ^^)
- About the special enemies, it could indeed prevent players from using too much batteries, although it may not be very intuitive (players won't understand those enemies comes because of thee battery ?)
- About using item HP to store data, it's a very good idea indeed. I actually already use this for the plants & tree to simulate their life (they start full HP, then loose HP slowly when not in good life conditions (no light/water/etc). until they become dead when too low HP.

But the issue with batteries is that they could be repaired (but I might just prevent that), and that when you take something back into your inventory, their HP is not saved (because they are not saved individually, only the number of each item is saved).
So, it could actually work if those batteries couldn't be removed from somewhere without being destroyed, and couldn't be healed.
Or a generator instead of a batterie, a sort of an overloaded machine/generator, that create energy but burn itself until breaking. And very unstable so cannot resist a miniaturization.
And this auto-countdown + the fact it cannot be moved would solve my main problem of replacing other generators, while still be a solution for temporary energy needs, same as the potions.
Definitely a very interesting idea!

[verdant!]

You could maybe have in the description that the batteries are "highly volatile" and "don't take minaturizing well."

[Gaddy Games]

Another question is its ingredients and characteristics.
Maybe some high radioactive blood (2nd one), a bit of aluminium and some dead plants using in the chemical reactions ? And craftable with T3 ?
And it could generate 3 KW for 3 minutes (night is 2min) ?

And the name : "uncontrolled (or unstable) nuclear reactor" ? This would clearly give the idea of being very unstable ^^. It could even make a little explosion at the end of its life, this would be fun. + it would promote the thorium nuclear energy, far much better ingame ^^

[CovReaper]

Originally posted by Gaddy Games:

Another question is its ingredients and characteristics.
Maybe some high radioactive blood (2nd one), a bit of aluminium and some dead plants using in the chemical reactions ? And craftable with T3 ?
And it could generate 3 KW for 3 minutes (night is 2min) ?

And the name : "uncontrolled (or unstable) nuclear reactor" ? This would clearly give the idea of being very unstable ^^. It could even make a little explosion at the end of its life, this would be fun. + it would promote the thorium nuclear energy, far much better ingame ^^

I feel that having something named nuclear reactor and not having uranium as a material is too much. Maybe have an "unstable reactor" that produces the 3KW and an unstable nuclear reactor that produces 4 or 5 but only lasts for 1 min or 2 so it isn't abused but can be used with the tesla turret or a small arsenal of adv. repair turrets. Make the explosion a bit bigger too. More damage or destroys your armor. That would really suck.

[matheod]

- For the special enemies, the AI could say a message like "carefull, your battery seems to attrack a particular specie. You shoudl'nt have too many if you want to avoid issue". Enemy could also share graphical trait with battery.

- For my third suggestion, I will explain in French :
Je n'ai pas été assez clair. On peut éviter tout les problèmes de réparation en faisant comme ceci :
Tout d'abord, comme tu l'as dit, d'empêcher de récupérer les batteries une fois placée.
Ensuite, imaginons par exemple qu'on l'on souhaite une batterie ayant 100hp de base, et pouvant acculer jusqu'à 400 énergies. Loesque l'on pose la batterie, elle possède 100hp. Si on lui fournit de l'énergie, alors la vie va pouvoir monter jusqu'à 500hp (100hp + 400 énergies). Si elle prend des dégats alors la vie va baisser d'autant que les domages reçu. Si la vie passe en dessous de 100hp, alors : la batterie ne peut plus fournir d'énergie mais elle peut être réparée. Si la vie est au dessus de 100hp, la batterie ne peut pas être réparée mais elle peut fournir de l'énergie. On pourra faire apparaitre un "bouclier champs de force" autour de la batterie lorsqu'elle a de l'énergie (vie supérieure à 100hp) pour justifier le fait qu'elle perde de l'énergie lorsqu'elle se fait attacker : cela coute de l'energie pour bloquer les dégats. Je sais pas si c'est clair ou pas.

La question qui reste est : les batteries peuvent elles recevoir de l'énergie si elles ont moins de 100hp. Deux possibilités : oui et ça remonte la vie en fait (on imagine que ça consomme de l'énergie pour se réparaer), non (le système est cassé il faut le réparer avant).

[matheod]

Other ideas :
- Battery could generate something toxic (gaz ?) and if there is too much of these toxic thing then the player (and maybe also strucures) could start getting damage, forcing to space these battery to avoid these accumulation of toxic things.
- Stocking energy could create electrical perturbation, disturbing nearby electrical things like turret leaving them unprotected. It could also disturb other battery forcing player to space them.

[Gaddy Games]

@Cov Reaper : "unstable reactor" name is good, you're right

@matheod: ok I think I understand, but then if we can recharge it and increase its hp, we cannot make it temporary by reducing the hp. And I think a battery that can be recharged gives less the idea of being "temporary" than a generator.
On the contrary, a generator that starts full life and lose it slowly is very intuitive: this way the HP bar = the life time bar (instead of having to add a special HUD or something like that). Maybe I could even add a little smoke over it. It would be fun, it would really give the feeling of a temporary and boost, finishing with an explosion

You other ideas are good too but I start to be technically very afraid ^^

[CovReaper]

Originally posted by Gaddy Games:

@Cov Reaper : "unstable reactor" name is good, you're right

@matheod: ok I think I understand, but then if we can recharge it and increase its hp, we cannot make it temporary by reducing the hp. And I think a battery that can be recharged gives less the idea of being "temporary" than a generator.
On the contrary, a generator that starts full life and lose it slowly is very intuitive: this way the HP bar = the life time bar (instead of having to add a special HUD or something like that). Maybe I could even add a little smoke over it. It would be fun, it would really give the feeling of a temporary and boost, finishing with an explosion

You other ideas are good too but I start to be technically very afraid ^^

If you make their hp bar = time to live then I feel like they should only "die" when they are in use. Giving us either the option to cut them from the circuit or turn them off to preserve what charge they have would be needed. Unless you want them to be a drop and go device.

Another issue I can see is that even if they can't be picked up or repaired they could still have to block below them removed, thus causing them to be dropped like the explosive charge. I would suggest that if they are picked up/dropped after a set amount they drop as a "damaged reactor" or something like that. Then you could throw in a recipe in the next tier to repair them using materials.

Example:

Unstable Reactor
5 x Iron
10 x Radioactive Blood
3 x Copper

To repair would cost:
3 x Aluminum or Iron depending on how you want to set it up
20 x Radioactive Blood/Energy Gems
1 x Uranium/Gold (not sure but this would limit how many you could repair but useful till you had the resources to make either a nuclear reactor or thorium)

The resource amounts were arbitrary.

The Nuclear Reactor would have a similar setup as well. If there are multiple tiers of reactors how about having an upgrade possiblity like the miniturizer? Unstable >> Nuclear >> Crystal >> Thorium. Only the Thorium would be stable enough to last forever. Each tier would have more life or put out more energy. Nuclear has more hp than Unstable. Crystal outputs more power than Nuclear but lasts the same. Thorium lasts forever and puts out the same or more.

Could use the rock heart to make a generator too. Have it require:
1 x Heart Stone Core (would require you to make it but it would be the center of the "heart")
2-5 x "Floating Rock Diamonds" Explosive required currently but not unobtainable
1 x Demon Skin

It is the ultimate generator producing 10 KW power but since it uses one of a kind materials only one can be made per game limiting the ridiculousness of having multiple.

Having tiered reactors/generators would let you have more freedom with introducing powered turrets (the beggining ones would have to be placed directly on the reactor for power since you don't have wiring yet).

[Chewy]

I'm in favor of having a fuel burning generator (using most likely coal or cystals), but it should have aspects that make its usefulness decrease over time. What I have in mind is a global toxicity level: a passive number that increases as the player pollutes their surroundings, and affects the world's environment depending on it's level (I'll use 1-4 as examples to explain).

Toxicity level 1- Nighttime mobs have X% more health and do X% more damage

Toxicity level 2- A new mob, "toxic slime", begins to spawn whenever it rains. The slime wouldn't be particularly difficult, but would have a tendency to dig its way into the player's base rather than using an open entrance. They would also prioritize running generators

Toxicity level 3- toxic slimes will, on top of spawning when it rains, always spawn at night.

Toxicity level 4- water poisons the player and slowly hurts them over time when they contact it

A fuel burning generator may generate something around 5%-10% of a level for every minute it is left running, making it lucrative for a player to build a clean hydro generator before the toxicity becomes too much of a problem. This helps transition the early and late game. Two supporting items to this idea may be the toxicity meter (HUD item that lets the player see the world's current toxicity level) and the water scrubber (lowers the toxicity level by powering it and running water through it). The water scrubber would work in the same way as the hydro generator, with increased results based on water pressure. It would also consume a huge amount of power, and would reduce the toxicity by an incredibly low amount (running 10 for a minute at max effeciency wouldn't conteract a single generator running in that same minute). This also encourages the construction of more water-harnessing structures of similar interest to the hydro generator.

[Gaddy Games]

They could die either in use or all the time. Personally I think i would prefer all the time, so it is really used only as a temporary solution, and avoid the risk of replacing the water generators every night.
And if the block below is removed, the item should break/explode (a bit like the trees), more simple that creating a specific damaged item, and consistant with the "unstable" idea
But that's only my opinion, your suggestion works too ; i'll see if/when I add this item, as it's not a priority for now

[Gaddy Games]

@ChewyRedstone thanks for the suggestion, but then the problem is that I would need to add some new mechanisms (toxicity), for this item only.
And i don't like much the idea of a refuelable thing (meaning a lot of mining), I want the player to be able to have an autonomous base. So this temporary generator or batterie must really be a temporary or backup solution, to something used to go back from the volcano or an advanced expedition, for example