FSX\P3D Navaids Update

[Kormega]

Your welcome!

http://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids3.html

[MAD Pigeon]

does this make navigation better compared to the normal one?

[tlvx]

Автор сообщения: Pigeon soldier

does this make navigation better compared to the normal one?

If you're ever considering flying on VATSIM, than you'll need to fly SIDs and STARs, in which case, you'll need all the requisite waypoints... and, updated to their current location.

[yellowjacket]

Автор сообщения: Kormega

Your welcome!

http://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids3.html

I am suppose to thank you for pointing me to a web site were the aurhor has hacked the default FSdata APX, ATI, NV, etc. bgl files?

All the VOR and NDB's that he has also hacked and moved causes FSX to crash. That is because he had no way of moving the Jet and Victor route data VOR/NDB companion waypoints. This also corrupts the Approach ARINC 424 database which nest in all the airport records.

Dovetail was not allowed to give a complete SDK with all the compilers. Do you think they are going to let everyone add hacked bgl's that used hex editors to the Scenery Dir folders of FSX Steam.

[tlvx]

Автор сообщения: yellowjacket

All the VOR and NDB's that he has also hacked and moved causes FSX to crash.

In my opinion, updating navaids to the latest real world data - is simply a crucial component of making the simulation more realistic. I don't get the impression that anything has been, "hacked."

If one wanted to go back to the default (outdated) navaids, one can simply run the Steam file verification utility, which will put the default installation navaids back.

If your FSX is crashing, what makes you think it's related to updated navaids? I wouldn't be surprised if your crashing was related to some other addon, entirely.

[ScruffyDuck]

There is a basic issue of whether it is appropriate to change (hack) the stock files delivered as an integral part of the program. There are those who think it is a bad thing to do and those who do not. It is certainly true that the FSX world is stuck in the past by about 10 years and while MS gave us ways to update much of it without changing stock files it did not do so for navaids.

Or to be accurate we can change a number of things about them including some movement. We can add new ones. What we can't do is delete them - that is unless you do change the stock files.

What is true is that changing stock files can have unpredictable effects on user installations, in particular it can affect third party addon airports and so on that are based on the default stock files and expect certain things from them.

What is also true is that MS did not provide any official tools to modify bgl files so all the third party utilities that change them are based on unofficial tools and reverse engineering of the file format.

I personally think it is a bad thing to change stock files. I recognize that this is OK for some folks and what they do in the privacy of thier own homes is their business.

What I would say is that folks should be made clearly aware when stock files are being changed and that there is a health warning of possible consequences. Those consequences include the unpredicability of the outcome. Ensuring that the tools make good and easily restored original files and potential problems with third party addons and getting proper support for them.

It seems to me that relying on the Steam verification utility is also a bad thing since the user could use this for reasons other than restoring modified stock files and then wonder where they went. It is a very blunt tool and no substiturte for the application or tool making the change having the means built in to restore the originals with precision.

I am sure there are plenty of very experienced users out there who are well capable of dealing with the implementation and consequences of modified stock files but there are an awful lot of folks on this forum who struggle to install simple addons.

So to finalize. If you are going to use tools or addons that modify stock files then fine but make sure you are aware of the implications and if you are unsure then don't do it.

BTW - by most definitions of hacking then changing stock files directly is hacking. In the interests of balance the tools we use to reverse engineer Bgl files are also hacking but if you think this tool is not hacking then I would like to know what you do think it is given that it is clearly reverse engineering copyright files and file formats and then changing them.

Jon
ScruffyDuck Software
Microsoft MVP

[tlvx]

Автор сообщения: ScruffyDuck

It seems to me that relying on the Steam verification utility is also a bad thing since the user could use this for reasons other than restoring modified stock files and then wonder where they went. It is a very blunt tool and no substiturte for the application or tool making the change having the means built in to restore the originals with precision.

I agree with this. It would be much better if the Steam verification utility allowed the ability to select or exclude certain files or folders, so that other addons and modifications are not affected.

Nevertheless, user ignorance is not a valid excuse in favor of continuously using outdated navigational information.

Unfortunately, the term, "hacking," has increasingly been given a derogatory context. "Hacking," in its modern context, is being used to commit crimes of theft on a grand scale, oftentimes with huge geopolitical, financial, or societal implications.

Conversely, updating the navaids in a home flight simulator - is not that type of hacking... So, it's not helpful to conflate the term.

"Hacking," in this sense, is of the useful variety.

I don't think a doomsday argument is helpful either, when it's quite easy to undo the update. I have yet to ascertain anything other than a more realistic navigation experience within my flight simulator, by updating the navaids.

Автор сообщения: ScruffyDuck

What I would say is that folks should be made clearly aware when stock files are being changed and that there is a health warning of possible consequences. Those consequences include the unpredicability of the outcome. Ensuring that the tools make good and easily restored original files and potential problems with third party addons and getting proper support for them.

http://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids3.html

Here is the first paragraph on the subject webpage, verbatim:

"The FSX/P3D World Navaids package will update FSX and Prepar3D navigational aids (VORs, NDBs) in selectable world areas (worldwide coverage). Corrections were performed by decompiling /recompiling stock BGL files. A multi-platform installer is provided and all original files are saved and can be restored. A PDF documentation is included. Be aware of some limitations/problems that may occur for those still using FS integrated flight planning (obsolete) or map view. See chapter 5 of documentation for details."
_________________________________________________________________________

Sounds like a fair and honest representaion to me.

Now, if another addon happens to be incompatible with the updated navaids, than that could be considered just as much the fault of those, "hacking," developers, as well. Perhaps they should find a way to work forwards, combining their efforts with that of resourceful developers such as these... so that their modifications to the simulator work, too... without having to use outdated navigational information.

It seems a bit disingenuous to play semantics about what may be considered, "hacking," when resourceful aviation enthusiasts alike, are merely working on the behalf of other enthusiasts, by updating the environment within the software, in aid of a more realistic aviation simulation.

If there is a better way to globally update the current navaids contained within SIDs and STARs; than, offering up that instead, would be more helpful information.

[yellowjacket]

Автор сообщения: tlvx

snip--------------------------

If your FSX is crashing, what makes you think it's related to updated navaids? I wouldn't be surprised if your crashing was related to some other addon, entirely.

My FSX will crash if I use his Navaids because the aurthor told me it would. You need to read what you post since you quoted the first paragraph on the subject webpage, verbatim:

and the last line said

See chapter 5 of documentation for details

The Flight Planner in FSX is not obsolete as he states but needs to make you believe it is obsolete so FSX will not crash. He states the Map Mode causes FSX to crash when using his files. He wants everyone to unselect certain map tags like victor and jet airways. In some cases you have to manually edit the FSX.cfg to get FSX to start.

When reading Chapter 5 pay strict attention to what happens when a stock default navaid bgl is replaced that has changes to VOR and NDB Lat/Lon locations.

If there is a better way to globally update the current navaids contained within SIDs and STARs; than, offering up that instead, would be more helpful information.

Every single current SID and STAR can be added to the FSX Flight plan using the FSX Flight Planner and recognized by the default ATC system but it must work and not crash FSX.

You add any missing WAYPOINT's with xml to the world FSData and any Terminal_Waypoint to the Airport Record in the FSData. Microsoft gave us the ability to do this without tampering with their default files. As per the SDK you need to know and understand the ARINC 424 Document that the MS ACES team contracted out so the Approaches and Transitions could be coded correctly.

Find me one single newly added Terminal_Waypoint in all those World Navaid packages that are in his bgl's. Many 3rd party payware and freeware airports that you can download have all the current navaids based on the date the airport was released.


Since you thought it would be important to post what his first paragraph on the subject webpage, verbatim: said, don't believe everything you read.

Corrections were performed by decompiling /recompiling stock BGL files.

The compiling process ACES used is not the same as what they gave us to use. There are many APX bgl's that will not recompile. Lets extract out from his NorthAmericanUpdate.zip the 0302\Scenery APX25160 and try to recompile like he says he did and this is what you get


ERROR: <FSData
ERROR:
ERROR: >
ERROR: <Airport
ERROR: country = United States
ERROR: state = Michigan
ERROR: <Tower
ERROR: lat = 42.2216290980577
ERROR: lon = -83.3489669859409
ERROR: alt = 0.0M
ERROR: >
ERROR: <SceneryObject
ERROR: lat = 42.237407527864
ERROR: lon = -83.3331334590912
ERROR: alt = 0.0M
ERROR: altitudeIsAgl = TRUE
ERROR: pitch = 0
ERROR: bank = 0
ERROR: heading = 0.19775390625
ERROR: imageComplexity = DENSE
ERROR: >
ERROR:
INTERNAL COMPILER ERROR: #C2024: Failed to process closing element tag <SceneryObject> near line 214535!
ERROR: 214548, 17, The element 'LibraryObject' is used but not declared in the DTD/Schema.

INTERNAL COMPILER ERROR: #C2583: Attempting to set multiple scenery objects on TOWER_MODEL!
INTERNAL COMPILER ERROR: #C2032: XML Parse Error! Element tree follows:

ERROR: <FSData
ERROR:
ERROR: >
ERROR: <Airport
ERROR: country = United States
ERROR: state = Michigan
ERROR: <Tower
ERROR: lat = 42.2216290980577
ERROR: lon = -83.3489669859409
ERROR: alt = 0.0M
ERROR: >
ERROR: <SceneryObject
ERROR: lat = 42.2218644618988
ERROR: lon = -83.3492513000965
ERROR: alt = 0.0M
ERROR: altitudeIsAgl = TRUE
ERROR: pitch = 0
ERROR: bank = 0
ERROR: heading = 0.19775390625
ERROR: imageComplexity = NORMAL
ERROR: >
ERROR:
INTERNAL COMPILER ERROR: #C2024: Failed to process closing element tag <SceneryObject> near line 214549!
ERROR: 214562, 17, The element 'LibraryObject' is used but not declared in the DTD/Schema.

INTERNAL COMPILER ERROR: #C2583: Attempting to set multiple scenery objects on TOWER_MODEL!
INTERNAL COMPILER ERROR: #C2032: XML Parse Error! Element tree follows:

ERROR: <FSData
ERROR:
ERROR: >
ERROR: <Airport
ERROR: country = United States
ERROR: state = Michigan
ERROR: <Tower
ERROR: lat = 42.2216290980577
ERROR: lon = -83.3489669859409
ERROR: alt = 0.0M
ERROR: >
ERROR: <SceneryObject
ERROR: lat = 42.2127707675099
ERROR: lon = -83.354267925024
ERROR: alt = 0.0M
ERROR: altitudeIsAgl = TRUE
ERROR: pitch = 0
ERROR: bank = 0
ERROR: heading = 0.19775390625
ERROR: imageComplexity = SPARSE
ERROR: >
ERROR:
INTERNAL COMPILER ERROR: #C2024: Failed to process closing element tag <SceneryObject> near line 214563!
ERROR: 214576, 17, The element 'LibraryObject' is used but not declared in the DTD/Schema.

INTERNAL COMPILER ERROR: #C2583: Attempting to set multiple scenery objects on TOWER_MODEL!
INTERNAL COMPILER ERROR: #C2032: XML Parse Error! Element tree follows:

ERROR: <FSData
ERROR:
ERROR: >
ERROR: <Airport
ERROR: country = United States
ERROR: state = Michigan
ERROR: <Tower
ERROR: lat = 42.2216290980577
ERROR: lon = -83.3489669859409
ERROR: alt = 0.0M
ERROR: >
ERROR: <SceneryObject
ERROR: lat = 42.2216290980577
ERROR: lon = -83.3489669859409
ERROR: alt = 0.0M
ERROR: altitudeIsAgl = TRUE
ERROR: pitch = 0
ERROR: bank = 0
ERROR: heading = 326.5576171875
ERROR: imageComplexity = VERY_SPARSE
ERROR: >
ERROR:
INTERNAL COMPILER ERROR: #C2024: Failed to process closing element tag <SceneryObject> near line 214577!
INTERNAL COMPILER ERROR: #C2607: Compilation errors detected, compilation failed!

I will recap the problem

There are a total of 5 scenery objects (buildings) at this one airport trying to be compiled inside the Tower Tags. One out of the five compiled since only one is allowed and the other 4

#C2024: Failed to process closing element tag <SceneryObject>
#C2583: Attempting to set multiple scenery objects on TOWER_MODEL!
#C2607: Compilation errors detected, compilation failed!


This default APX bgl will not compile regardless of what a paragraph says.

The Airport and Navaid route system in FSX is a vey complex set of codes im many bgl's that all must work together. When you extract out certain bgl's and make changes you can do more harm then good. The end result is FSX is now broke.

[Manwith Noname]

Автор сообщения: tlvx

It would be much better if the Steam verification utility allowed the ability to select or exclude certain files or folders, so that other addons and modifications are not affected.

Heh, sorting 50,000 files in 2000 folders by hand, sounds like fun.

Edit: Yes, adding a file you don't want messed with is easy, doing so for large packs of textures and such becomes a chore.

[tlvx]

Автор сообщения: yellowjacket

Many 3rd party payware and freeware airports that you can download have all the current navaids based on the date the airport was released.

I've dealt with many a 3rd party airport, freeware and payware. Let me tell you, half the time I cannot even trust that the runways have been placed in their actual locations, with their actual length, width, and heading. Sometimes the discrepancies are huge, as in thousands of feet. Straightforward things like incorrect or missing offset thresholds are often the cause. But, when the heading and position is wrong, the results have been egregious.

Nevertheless, relying on individual airport files to solve the global issue of outdated navaids is not very effective... unless one has painstakingly modified each and every one of those airports.

Even if all of the payware airports did this work correctly - which is nowhere near the truth - it would cost a fortune to purchase all of those airports.

Alternatively, it becomes quite an unrealistic ask, to even undertake all of this work, with each and every airport, individually.

Ultimately, I don't see a panacea that is effective as this tool has been for updating the navaids, worldwide. When I create a flightplan, after updating the navaids in this way... the SIDs and STARs have all been where they should be, no muss no fuss.

I haven't found another solution that doesn't rely on piecework, or large expenditures of real dollars. But, I'm all ears.

Автор сообщения: yellowjacket

The Airport and Navaid route system in FSX is a vey complex set of codes im many bgl's that all must work together. When you extract out certain bgl's and make changes you can do more harm then good. The end result is FSX is now broke.

I don't get the impression that my FSX, "is now broke," after updating the navaids. Give me a scenario that will reproduce a crash, based on this particular navaid update, "hack," if you will.