Controller Issues

[OS]

I have a Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback II and and a set of CH Pedals. Using these controllers is starkly different than actual flying. I literally see the plane jerking back and forth uncontrollably yet I can't figure out what settings to change this. Is it controller sensitivity? I tried turning it to nearly off and still get the jerking.

Do you know what to do?

[TextRich]

OS, can you be more detailed in what the jerking looks like? Is it like that in all views? Or is it your view that jerks back and forth? A video would help a lot if you can produce something using OBS and upload it to YouTube.

[Morag]

Originally posted by OS:

I have a Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback II and and a set of CH Pedals. Using these controllers is starkly different than actual flying. I literally see the plane jerking back and forth uncontrollably yet I can't figure out what settings to change this. Is it controller sensitivity? I tried turning it to nearly off and still get the jerking.

Do you know what to do?

Firstly, have you calibrated the stick? Before you do anything else do that first.

The 'sensitivity' sliders in the FSX settings don't really affect sensitivity or calibration, all that slider does is add a lag to your input so it's best to have these sliders set fully to the right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL5gsRg2Xo4

another thing to try, I have an MSFF2 joystick too, is the config tweak in this thread

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/132-How-to-make-your-controls-more-responsive-A-Tweak

I found the FF2 stick waay too twitchy without this tweak.

Maybe whilst testing turn the forces off in FSX settings so you're just working with a loose stick, I think that'll be easier to determine if the input is smooth.

Finally, when you get your input sorted - I cannot recommend this add on enough to people with force feedback sticks

http://fs-force.com/

it really makes the forces a lot better in the sim and in addition your elevator trim settings are fed back through the force feedback program so trimming is much more natural and realistic than with any stick with a centre spring.

[maelstrom_19]

Originally posted by Morag:

another thing to try, I have an MSFF2 joystick too, is the config tweak in this thread

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/132-How-to-make-your-controls-more-responsive-A-Tweak

I found the FF2 stick waay too twitchy without this tweak.

Maybe whilst testing turn the forces off in FSX settings so you're just working with a loose stick, I think that'll be easier to determine if the input is smooth.

Finally, when you get your input sorted - I cannot recommend this add on enough to people with force feedback sticks

http://fs-force.com/

it really makes the forces a lot better in the sim and in addition your elevator trim settings are fed back through the force feedback program so trimming is much more natural and realistic than with any stick with a centre spring.

Never had to adjust the sesitivity of my FF2. However, I agree 100% about FS Force. It transforms the FF2 joystick in FSX.

[Morag]

Originally posted by n74k2gunz8:

Never had to adjust the sesitivity of my FF2. However, I agree 100% about FS Force. It transforms the FF2 joystick in FSX.

I can't remember exactly what that cfg entry does now, the 'sensitivity mode' I think was just a different response curve introduced in FS2k2 (or there abouts) and adding the =0 tweak reverts the joystick response back to being more linear.

At the default setting I can get full aileron deflection with even relatively small movements of the stick when calibrated. For me it's essential, for everyone else I think it's worth trying and it's trivially easy to remove the line or set to =1 if you don't like the change.

[Erazer]

Originally posted by Morag:

The 'sensitivity' sliders in the FSX settings don't really affect sensitivity or calibration, all that slider does is add a lag to your input so it's best to have these sliders set fully to the right.

I have to disagree totally there Morag, especially after looking at the video.

Control surfaces simply cannot move that fast in the real world as the motors or hydraulics take time to move them. What the video is showing is immediate movement. Simply doesn't happen.

When in the cockpit and adding flaps you can - hear - the motors working and you can also - see - that it takes some time for the surfaces to move, on the glass screen.

Having a - totally separate - throttle with additional controls available means that you can not only control the gear and flaps but can also assign two buttons on a hatswitch to trim, and assign the two buttons on the joystick to something else.

I would leave the sensitivity sliders alone as they are set to give realistic movement.

If you have moved them you should reset them to their default settings.

As n74k2gunz8 rightly points out:

Never had to adjust the sensitivity of my FF2..., etc.

Edit: Added an 'n'. Sorry...

[maelstrom_19]

Originally posted by Erazer:

Control surfaces simply cannot move that fast in the real world as the motors or hydraulics take time to move them. What the video is showing is immediate movement. Simply doesn't happen.

When in the cockpit and adding flaps you can - hear - the motors working and you can also - see - that it takes some time for the surfaces to move, on the glass screen.

What about direct cable operated flight controls in light aircraft - they ARE instantaneous. Even modern powered flying controls have no discernible lag (retired professional pilot here). Flaps, slats and airbrakes take time to move but not flying controls (elevator, aileron, rudder).

[Erazer]

Originally posted by n74k2gunz8:

Originally posted by Erazer:

Control surfaces simply cannot move that fast in the real world as the motors or hydraulics take time to move them. What the video is showing is immediate movement. Simply doesn't happen.

When in the cockpit and adding flaps you can - hear - the motors working and you can also - see - that it takes some time for the surfaces to move, on the glass screen.

What about direct cable operated flight controls in light aircraft - they ARE instantaneous. Even modern powered flying controls have no discernible lag (retired professional pilot here). Flaps, slats and airbrakes take time to move but not flying controls (elevator, aileron, rudder).

Which is probably why you never altered the default settings.

Instantaneous doesn't and cannot exist where a control surface has to - move - from one position to another as any movement takes time and, as such, cannot be instantaneous as time is always involved.

Things that appear to happen in an instant happen in an 'instant(ce) of time.'

Our very language is not always as precise as it could be.

[Erazer]

Take 'semi-tic(k)' for example. This is actually referrring to each half second of passing time and not what some think it means. All part of supernatural deception. Unfortunately.

Basically a black satanic comedy where we are all made to look like fools.

[Morag]

Originally posted by Erazer:

Originally posted by Morag:

The 'sensitivity' sliders in the FSX settings don't really affect sensitivity or calibration, all that slider does is add a lag to your input so it's best to have these sliders set fully to the right.

I have to disagree totally there Morag, especially after looking at the video.

Control surfaces simply cannot move that fast in the real world as the motors or hydraulics take time to move them. What the video is showing is immediate movement. Simply doesn't happen.

When in the cockpit and adding flaps you can - hear - the motors working and you can also - see - that it takes some time for the surfaces to move, on the glass screen.

Having a - totally separate - throttle with additional controls available means that you can not only control the gear and flaps but can also assign two buttons on a hatswitch to trim, and assign the two buttons on the joystick to something else.

I would leave the sensitivity sliders alone as they are set to give realistic movement.

If you have moved them you should reset them to their default settings.

As n74k2gunz8 rightly points out:

Never had to adjust the sensitivity of my FF2..., etc.

Edit: Added an 'n'. Sorry...

I think you disagree because you don't understand what those sliders do or why they do it.

You only benefit from introducing input lag if you're flying with an xbox pad or the keyboard or maybe a $10 joytick from walmart. It's not there to simulate motors controlling the elevator...? It's there because slapping the elevator up and down like in the video is all you can do with a keyboard input.

If you're using a joystick or esp a yoke you absolutely want those sensitivity sliders all the way to the right or turn the inpput lag mode off altogether with the cfg edit I linked above.

Adding input lag can make joystick controls feel too twitchy, especially when making lots of fine adjustments to the stick like during landing. You'll tend to compensate for the lag by moving the stick too much then you have to correct in the opposite direction... and you'll move it too mucn...

Because it's laggy whist making constant adjustments your stick is NEVER where the sim thinks it is which is not at all realistic or helpful.

With the default forces enabled (which are broken garbage) this twitchy action of over lagging the elevator up and down introduces an occilating force which makes the stick jerk back and forward in your hand, similar to what OS is describing in his original post.

[Erazer]

Originally posted by Morag:

Originally posted by Erazer:

I have to disagree totally there Morag, especially after looking at the video.

Control surfaces simply cannot move that fast in the real world as the motors or hydraulics take time to move them. What the video is showing is immediate movement. Simply doesn't happen.

When in the cockpit and adding flaps you can - hear - the motors working and you can also - see - that it takes some time for the surfaces to move, on the glass screen.

Having a - totally separate - throttle with additional controls available means that you can not only control the gear and flaps but can also assign two buttons on a hatswitch to trim, and assign the two buttons on the joystick to something else.

I would leave the sensitivity sliders alone as they are set to give realistic movement.

If you have moved them you should reset them to their default settings.

As n74k2gunz8 rightly points out:

Never had to adjust the sensitivity of my FF2..., etc.

I think you disagree because you don't understand what those sliders do or why they do it.

You only benefit from introducing input lag if you're flying with an Xbox pad or the keyboard or maybe a $10 joytick from Walmart. It's not there to simulate motors controlling the elevator...? It's there because slapping the elevator up and down like in the video is all you can do with a keyboard input.

And the very reason why people should NOT still be attempting to use the keyboard when there are H.O.T.A.S. available.

If you're using a joystick, or especially a yoke, you absolutely want those sensitivity sliders all the way to the right or turn the inpput lag mode off altogether with the cfg edit I linked above.

Adding input lag can make joystick controls feel too twitchy, especially when making lots of fine adjustments to the stick like during landing. You'll tend to compensate for the lag by moving the stick too much then you have to correct in the opposite direction... and you'll move it too much...

Experience should soon teach the user that only fine movements of the joystick is all that is required. If they have followed the lessons in the learning center then they should remeber the instructor's advice. It's actually similar to aiming a rifle as the 'target', in this case the runway is still some distance away and appears very small. It's only as you get close to landing that larger joystick movements come into play. As you can't get these fine movements with a keyboard then as you posted on another subject ... DON'T USE A KEYBOARD. Similar to if you can't afford a Cadillac then ... DON'T BUY ONE!

Because it's laggy whist making constant adjustments your stick is NEVER where the sim thinks it is which is not at all realistic or helpful.

That's where the Thrustmaster T.16000M FCS H.O.T.A.S. joystick comes into its own because it employs magnetic H.E.A.R.T. technology plus, there are no dead zones.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/314160/discussions/15/1742226629864303184/

Note the exceptionally fine degree of controller inputs.

With the default forces enabled (which are broken garbage) this twitchy action of over lagging the elevator up and down introduces an oscillating force which makes the stick jerk back and forward in your hand, similar to what OS is describing in his original post.

I think that I should point out that FSX is not an Xbox game and as it is an aircraft flight *simulator* then the right equipment should be used in preference to all and any others.

Using a cheap $10 Walmart joystick, an Xbox controller, or attempting to use the keyboard and mouse is plain foolishness in my considered opinion, as a fully qualified mechanical and electrical engineer, as they don't give the hands on feel of a H.O.T.A.S. which by its very nature implies HANDS ON controls and not fingers on keys or buttons.

Nor will you find a mouse on board any real world aircraft.

Cheap in nature, being cheap in fact, is nine times out of ten, just false economy.

People should be advised to use the right equipment for the task at hand and not make life difficult for themselves.

Unfortunately the commercial nature of life on this planet is that the market now offers a plethora of cheap imitations when compared to the 'real thing'.

A veritable Pandora's box of cheap, erzatz [ https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ersatz ] kitch [ https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kitsch ]

Referred to, in industry, as Computer Related Anti Personnel AKA 'Plane C.R.A.P.

Of course the commercial market takes full advantage of the "I WANT IT NOW!" mentality which is typical of many younger people.

Or maybe the OP should re-install the FF driverand ensure that it's the right one.

[TextRich]

Erazer, some people just want to fly for a laugh or they want to be able to fly when they travel and don't want to bring too much equipment. Like me... I have FS2004 in my travel laptop and use a gaming mouse with numbered thumb buttons for various keystrokes such as rudders and brakes. Nothing else other than the laptop's keyboard. I save the realism for my home computer with FSX:SE and several different controllers for different types of aircraft. :-)

Some people don't have more than a $10 joystick in their budget - for FSX purposes, it is still an upgrade over default keyboards and mice that comes with a standard desktop computer. The controller sensitivity settings are there because Microsoft understood that some people use study-level controllers and some people use XBox controllers, and they wanted to be inclusive to help with FSX's sales. It is great that we have a community with a diverse user base.

Anyway OS has not gone into details as to the jerky motions he said he has experienced, which is a shame.

[Morag]

Originally posted by Erazer:

I think that I should point out that FSX is not an Xbox game and as it is an aircraft flight *simulator* then the right equipment should be used in preference to all and any others.

Using a cheap $10 Walmart joystick, an Xbox controller, or attempting to use the keyboard and mouse is plain foolishness in my considered opinion, as a fully qualified mechanical and electrical engineer, as they don't give the hands on feel of a H.O.T.A.S. which by its very nature implies HANDS ON controls and not fingers on keys or buttons.

Nor will you find a mouse on board any real world aircraft.

Cheap in nature, being cheap in fact, is nine times out of ten, just false economy.

People should be advised to use the right equipment for the task at hand and not make life difficult for themselves.

Unfortunately the commercial nature of life on this planet is that the market now offers a plethora of cheap imitations when compared to the 'real thing'.

A veritable Pandora's box of cheap, erzatz [ https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ersatz ] kitch [ https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kitsch ]

Referred to, in industry, as Computer Related Anti Personnel AKA 'Plane C.R.A.P.

Of course the commercial market takes full advantage of the "I WANT IT NOW!" mentality which is typical of many younger people.

Or maybe the OP should re-install the FF driverand ensure that it's the right one.

No. The driver CD that comes with the Sidewinder hasn't worked since windows 98. There's no other driver to download or install you just plug the stick in.

[Erazer]

Originally posted by Morag:

No. The driver CD that comes with the Sidewinder hasn't worked since Windows '98. There's no other driver to download or install you just plug the stick in.

Then maybe he can uninstall the driver and get a fresh one, in case it might have become damaged.

Standard procedure for other Windows supplied drivers.

1998?

A twenty year record of reliability.

Impressive in itself.

[Morag]

Originally posted by Erazer:

[That's where the Thrustmaster T.16000M FCS H.O.T.A.S. joystick comes into its own because it employs magnetic H.E.A.R.T. technology plus, there are no dead zones.

it doesn't make any difference which stick you use you will still get input lag if you set the sensitivity sliders to less than maximum.

I'm not recommending flying with a keyboard, I'm recommending setting the sim up to fly with a joystick for people who use joysticks. By default MSFS is set up to be flown with a keyboard.

[Erazer]

Originally posted by Morag:

By default MSFS is set up to be flown with a keyboard.

Just another massive MS 'mistake'.

Knowing what it was that they were producing they should have developed suitable controllers rather than a plethora of inadequate ones.

Only having a joystick and having to use the tiny throttle control is not only unrealistic but also becomes uncomfortable after a while where both hands have to be placed together rather than apart.

[Fortunately this doesn't bother the AutoPilot who seems to be quite happy with the status quo, being a *dedicated* airline 'employee'.]

It's much more natural ergonomically, as well as being much more comfortable and relaxing, to have a totally independant throttle.

Unless you have tried a good H.O.T.A.S. personally you won't be able to experience the difference. Consequently what passes for 'advice' is, in fact, merely opinion.

But then you can't drive every available vehicular means of transport either, etc.