Arty Nerf

[DeadPool]

Seems like the nerf bat as landed pretty heavily on arty... doesn't do much of anything now (almost no HP damage, low disruption). Feels like they might have gone too far with it.

How does it feel like to you guys?

On the plus side, i can finally start the game without a black screen problem... Yay!

[Adherbal]

The main reason for the change is to address the furstrating event where you retreat a badly mauled elite unit from the front line, only to get it killed off by long range artillery during the enemy's turn.

This was less of an issue during the Pacific campaigns because (heavy) artillery (especially for the Japanese) was fairly uncommon there. But with the Russian front campaigns player's will be facing much more numerious artillery concentrations and we quickly realised this was having devastating effects on unit survivability.

Perhaps we'll have to increase the base damage output a bit to compensate from the new calculation however. The damage done against a full strength target is identical to pre-patch 2.6.7, but drops to virtually 0 against a 1 strength target - so whiping out a unit completely with artillery alone is now impossible.

Further feedback on this will be appreciated, but give it some time to get used to first.

[Hans Gruber]

Maybe devs should have tested this on the campaigns first because now in New Georgia map it's complete waste of time to capture Rendova island. The 155m guns can't even reach Munda now.

[Adherbal]

I don't think we've changed any artillery ranges. Looking at my stats sheet it's set to 6 which (IIRC) is the same as before?

Our aim is to make artillery an ideal weapon to soften up defenses - by reducing strength and crippling efficiency - without being able to destroy enemy units from long range. This way they become the support weapon they should be, but still require actual boots on the ground to wipe out the enemy.

[Hans Gruber]

Adherbal, I was in the middle of the New Georgia scenario when update was released. One turn the guns on Rendova were hitting the Japanese infantry next to Munda and the next turn they could no longer reach further than southern most hex next to Munda where Japanese artillery was positioned.

[Adherbal]

I doubt artillery was ever able to wipe out units to the last man (or tank). The current change, where it's easier to cause casualties if there is more stuff to potentially hit should improve realism.

[Slitherine_Iain]

If people feel very strongly what about leaving the old system but saying you can never kill the last strength point with artillery - you have to get in there with troops on the ground to finish it off?

[Adherbal]

@Hans: My bad you are correct - I was looking at the M12 155mm (motorised version). It looks like a mistake has slipped in these stats. Some of the US arty got an (unintended) range increase, while the Long Tom dropped to 5.

We'll fix this asap. As the patch log said, we did a lot of stats changes (managed through excel sheets) so if you notice any other weird changes please do report them!

[Crazed Possum]

Slitherine_Iain님이 먼저 게시:

If people feel very strongly what about leaving the old system but saying you can never kill the last strength point with artillery - you have to get in there with troops on the ground to finish it off?

This sounds more appropriate and is a nice compromise.

[Adherbal]

I'd like to hear your experiences after playing the Viipuri 1944 scenario, where the Soviets throw a firing line of six 155 to 203mm howitzers and a bunch of Katyushas against your defenses :)

Before this change any unit venturing in range of that was deleted during the enemy turn. It probably still is now, but at least it takes a horde of T34s and infantry for the final kill, after it's efficiency and strength got crippled by the artillery barrage.

[Wraith_Magus]

If you want to talk reailsm, artillery was responsible for the majority of combat deaths in land wars. In fact, artillery was ten times as likely to kill a soldier as a bullet[www.answers.com]. Mortars, mines, grenades, and other small explosives were the second-leading cause of death. Keep in mind, this was a time when single-shot rifles focused upon long-range accuracy were the primary armament, and automatic weapons were generally used as suppressive support weapons or in defensive bunkers. Accuracy was low, and rifles weren't capable of sustained fire.

Realism would mean that you kill the enemy by using artillery, and only send in boots on the ground to claim territory. Having a diminishing return the way that dogfighters deal less damage to smaller units would be fine, but they need to have a much higher baseline to start with.

Playing the Japanese campaign in the past week, I essentially never see my artillery deal any damage to anyone but AT guns or other super-low-armor units, and their effects upon efficiency are lower than sending in some lower-cost engineers. Artillery is a total waste of resources better spent on more infantry that can actually do damage. I regret buying them almost as much as I regret having bought a AT/AA gun in a campaign where the enemy never has tanks or attacks land targets with its aircraft. For that matter, there's little use for tanks but mopping up stragglers. They're hypothetically decent, but the enemy ALWAYS has an AT gun in every defensive position, which they never leave. There's basically no downside to buying nothing but infantry and just zerg rushing everything with the cheapest units you can buy. Infantry are massively overpowered to the point that you're an idiot if you buy anything else.

For that matter, if you want to talk realism in naval battles, Amreican submarines took out about 1/3rd the Japanese navy, and was second only to aircraft. Battleships were just big targets, not devastating killers, and cruisers were ultimately far more deadly, if completely helpless to airpower, whereas there's no point in cruisers in this game.

[>-FISH-D]

rob_89님이 먼저 게시:

Adherbal you took out any resemblance to realism with your changes granted this is just a game but when you turn arty into just a a slow moving poor defense ineffective infantry unit to be used for fodder you have defeated the spirit of the unit. I am sorry to say this but your team in one swoop have destroyed a good playable game. I know from personal experience that arty is to be feared and respected for its deadly effects on any battlefield. I have played out the first three scenarios of witer war and have no want to go any further in this game. I am going to load up a few saved games I have to see if they play out. If they go as I suspect they will I will have to shelve this game.

Uh oh that really doesn't sound good. I was about to pick up Winter War. :-(. May wait to see if this is somehow fixed.

[DeadPool]

I really approve of artillery being less letal to low strength units... it's logical.

But in my game, arty is now almost useless even against full strength units (error in programming ?).

I think that wanting to nerf arty for the Finland campaign as really hurt the Pacific campaigns.

Maybe a rework of arty stats is in order (less strength damage, more efficiency reduction ?) or maybe make arty more rare by making it heavier in supply?

One thing is for sure, please bring back the King of the Battlefield :)

Keep up the good work devs!

[Metafreak]

Hi Adherbal,
Just wondering at what point does the weakening of artillery 'kick in'? For example, is it once the target unit gets below, say, 5 strength points or is it a more gradual decline in effectiveness all the way from full strength to 1?

[Wraith_Magus]

I should also point out that the AI badly misuses heavy infantry, although it tends to wind up saving me an awful lot.

Since infantry are the most powerful units, heavy infantry are basically the strongest units in the game, and nearly always the toughest nut to crack in the passive enemy defensive positions I have to overrun. The enemy AI, however squanders its moves by firing off useless mortar attacks that do nothing but tick down one efficiency on one of my nearby units. It can deal 4-5 damage in an assault, but it still chooses to make 0 damage arty attacks.

Likewise, in places like Invasion of Java, the enemy aircraft in the west-central area of the map does nothing but uselessly strafe tanks it can't damage instead of hunting my bombers. The AI has no recognition of when its attacks are going to be useless, and no capacity to recognize when sitting in one position "defensively" is a total waste of its combat potential. Only the highly-vulnerable support units like AT and AA guns move from their defensive positions to more exposed ones, while the general attack units tend to sit on their thumbs and wait for you to kill them.

Because of this, land battles tend to be a joke - there's no point in any units besides infantry, and enemy AI tends to sit still performing useless indirect attacks while I simply walk around half the enemy and zerg rush the rest.

[Hans Gruber]

In US Pacific campaign it is now an adventure to deal 10 damage with the fortress battery on Bataan.