Realistic sailing ?

[Ghost Engineer]

Realistic sailing – Advanced wind and physics model provides for realistic portrayal of ship’s performance in the age of sail. Yard angles, ship angle to wind, fittings and ship condition affects speeds and turning rates. Correct tacking, boxhauling, clubhauling and other elements of the age of sail sailing are possible. Hidden ship characteristics will allow to gradually uncover potential of the vessel – every ship in game will be unique.

I've seen some videos and while most of this description is true doesn't look like there's as much complexity as it leads you to belive.

Please excuse any misuse of English sailing terminology. I'm pretty good with everyday English but I don't use the sailing terminology on a daily basis so sometimes I use the wrong term. I've done all my sailing with Polish people and this stuff just doesn't translate easily.

There's a couple of things that this description mentions but I haven't seen in any of the videos I watched:
1. Clubhauling - there doesn't seem to be any anchor mechanics so this is not possible.
2. Hidden ship characteristics - nobody I have watched has mentioned this. Is this true ? How does it work exactly ?

Other things that I would like someone to clarify
3. Is there a difference in the size of the 'no-go' zone between square rigged vs fore-and-aft rigged vessels ?
4. What is the closest point of sailing for, let's say, a frigate and a schooner ? (roughly, in degrees)
5. Can my sails get damaged 'unequally' ? For example if my forsails get severely damaged will the ship steer heavily into the wind by itself ?
6. Does the game simulate 'clear air' ?
7. Is there any advantage to using manual sails when you're NOT manouvering. Looks like automatic sails will always bring you up to maximum speed on your current course.

From the videos I watched it seems like the only worthwile thing that the manual sails allow you to do is boxhauling. Don't get me wrong, that's more than ANY game in this genre has EVER done but it's a little disappointing. If there really is a complex wind and physics model in the game then I'd wish there was more to do with it.

[HooDooMan]

In the open world the wind direction rotates counter-clockwise a few degrees at a time every few minutes. Time is compressed somewhat in the OW. Point is that there are no trade winds or wind patterns. I would say that is a much bigger issue.

Don't get me wrong, I like Naval Action. But it is more game than sailing simulator.

[HardyKnox]

Manual sails are only available during Battle Screen ("BS"), not in the default status called Open World ("OW") where you also cannot aim or fire your guns.

In both BS and OW, you can get caught "in irons" (imagine yourself in a dungeon locked up in irons to understand the term) ... unable to move or turn in the water because directly into the wind. OW allows you to simulate "boxhauling" because you can always slowly change direction, until you can gain steerage way. In the BS (a 'reality' state separate from OW), your speed will be about half your "Open World" speed and you can very much be caught "in irons" and even find yourself moving backwards, unable to steer and aim your guns while being hammered by a enemy. Dangerous in battle, but manageable.

In Battle, you can separately turn your foremast sails and your aft sails, and combining with rudder, get out of "Irons" ... also, while sailing in Battle, even when sailing at full speed, you can use your square sails to make tighter turns than the automatic sails will achieve.

There are several dozen ships in the game, each with different sailing, gunnery, armor and hold characteristics. As a result, they have different "best points of sail" ... the square rigged frigates and First Rates do better down wind than the fore-and-aft rigged small ships that reproduce various types of cutters, schooners and fast sloops.

Cap Jeheil has a series of Naval Action videos covering from "First Missions" through basic sailing, navigating, trading, crafting, Outposts and Production. His weekly "Letter to the King" updates on local alliances and warfare. Subscribe, you'll be glad you did.
They start at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7sojL0yGHA

Jeheil's videos include one about getting out of irons, which illustrates use of Manual Sails, which, again only are available in the Battle Screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9QePa1SOks

~ HK ~
Yankee Trader and US Coast Guard Militia
PvP One EU

[HardyKnox]

P.S. Here's Jeheil's latest video which is a review of the "sneak peek" at the latest ship to be released by Naval Action, the Santa Cecilia aka Hermione aka Retaliation aka Retribution. He discusses the history of the ship on which this is modelled, starting as a British 32 gun Fifth Rate laid down in 1780.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6fU3eh1JoM

~ HK ~
Yankee Trader and US Coast Guard Militia
PvP One EU

[Ghost Engineer]

I've edited my post to make it a bit clearer what I'm asking for. I really just want to know these few specific things. Both of you told me stuff I already knew from what I have seen or read about the game. Maybe I shouldn't have put TL:DR at the end.

I know this is a game and not a sailing simulator but I want to know how far does the simulation go. It does look like it's better than usual and that's why I want to know more details.

P.S. I'm a sailor IRL. I know what 'in irons' means.

[Green Death]

No anchors, so no club-hauling, correct there. Hidden ship characteristics is a tricky one since they're hidden... but ships do have 'unseen' stats which affect their stiffness, acceleration, how close to the wind they can sail as well as all having different best points of sail.

Sail control is not particularly complex or 'realistic'. There is no individual sail control, I believe this was tried early on and found to be too difficult for most people to actually find fun. Nor do we have realistic sail plans, in NA more sails = faster, regardless.

That said there is some decent depth to the sailing model, and (as a non expert) it does seem that one needs to behave more or less as a real ship would. However I've never noticed that damaging sails affects anything other than speed. Neither is 'clear air' simulated, you can't steal somebody's wind.

I think NA ships sail closer to the wind than one would find irl, can't give exact figures and profiles are different for all ships. The info is on the official forum somewhere, will see if I can dig it up. Again, it's something of a compromise between realism and fun/playability. The only time you'll actually stop dead is when in irons, although sailing too close is painfully slow in battle.

Some people will swear that they can get an extra 1/2 knot of straight line speed using manual sails, but I've never found this to be the case personally.

Got no idea what the 'no-go zone' between sqaure and fore and aft rigged ships is, can you elaborate?

Anyway hope that sort of helped a bit ;o

[Ink]

Ship speed charts might be checked here:
http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/8431-ship-speeds/
http://www.navalactionwiki.com/index.php?title=Ships
Also nice guide: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=651042782

The game has the most comprehensive sail damage done in a sailing game to date.

Damage works like this:

Masts
Masts are split into sections and you can break individual sections away by cannon fire, even bowsprit
Every section has its own HP and thickness.

Sails
Every sail is individual and has its own power and HP. Hit the main sail - main sail loses power (not other sails). Sails can be penetrated through (cloth) so shooting sails from the direction of bow or stern can get more damage. Lose square sails (if you have lots of staysails and fore-and aft sails) you will still sail well close hauled. Lose staysails you will still sail well at 135.
Smart captains know how to lower potential sail damage by turning yards parallel to potential shots greatly reducing damage. If they depower staysails they might get no damage at all.

[Ghost Engineer]

Thanks guys. This mostly covers what I wanted to know.

Messaggio originale di Acid_Penguin:

Got no idea what the 'no-go zone' between sqaure and fore and aft rigged ships is, can you elaborate?

I'm very bad at explaining sailing terminology in English so here's a quote from WIkipedia: "The range of directions into which a boat cannot sail is called the "no-go" zone."
It does seem that NA ships sail much closer than they would irl (which is fine, it's a game), but what I wanted to know is: Can a schooner can escape from a frigate by sailing closer to the wind where the frigate cannot follow her. Irl any square-rigged ship would only be able to sail around 65-70 deg into the wind when under square sails. A schooner on the other hand could probably go up to around 50 deg.

EDIT: I took a look at that forum posts with speed profiles and they speak for themselves. It seems well balanced between realism and gameplay. Looks like I'll be taking a closer look at this game once it's released. Looking forward to it.

[cwsumner]

Yes, a fore-and-aft rigged ship can get away from a square-rigged ship, if it can get upwind.

But the stays'ls let square-riggers go upwind slowly, and big ones might have bow "chaser" cannons, that can take you out if they are close.

And yes, setting the sails manually can get you a bit more speed, in battle screen area.

Acid_Penguin is right, complex sail controls were there early on, but had to be nerfed because they were too much of a headache. Sad. Maybe an option sometime in the future?

[Ghost Engineer]

I'm really happy to hear all of this. I've been waiting for a game that does more than just more sails = more speed but less turn rate since I first played Sid Meyer's Pirates! about 15 years ago. What I'm hoping to see in this game is DEPTH and SKILL CELING. That's what all of the other 'pirate' or 'age of sail' games usually lack.
I understand that super-realistic sails control just doesn't work in an actual GAME but it seems that Naval Action does make a big step in the right direction and hopefully it can find the right balance between realism, historical accuracy and playability. There's no point in having control over each and every sail if it there's no advantage in using it vs setting it to auto. For that you'd have to simulate stuff like the ship's trim, leeway and all these little things and I understand that often it's just not viable to implement those for many different reasons (limited dev time, processing power etc.).

In the terms of realism and historical accuracy you being a commander of, let's say, a frigate, you wouldn't give specific orders about each and every sail anyway. That was the job of other crewmembers. The master, officers, bosuns, down to regular crewmen, all had their jobs and were usually trained pretty well in doing it. It would be nice if in the game your crew wasn't just 'a number' (is it ?) and their skill was represnted in some way. At least the more important crewmembers should maybe have their own stats that affect their performance and the performance of the crew 'below' them, because that's how it actually worked (and still works to this day). Then you could maybe simulate them dying in battle and others taking their place and maybe not being able to do their job as well.

I may have gotten ahead of things here. I just noticed I moved from 'realistic sailing' into 'historically accurate crew managment' :D
And now I do want to know how that works in this game. I've seen that you can change your crew's 'focus' but is that it ? I'm hoping there's more, even if it's stuff that's only planned.

[Green Death]

The other thing to consider in the realism vs gameplay thing is that as well as sailing you are controlling the gunnery. The balance feels right to me in that you can pick targets, aim and fire and deal with adjusting yards all at the same time, which is essential to fighting well, but there is some skill in doing it.

I'd love to see crew experience become a thing like you mention, with that experience being diluted by losses and new recruits. At the moment it is a fairly basic process of simply assigning crew to gunnery, sailing, repairs etc and yes, your crew is just a number. Not sure if anything is planned but the ideas are certainly out there.

We do have 'Officers' who gain ranks through experience (and can lose lives through sinking/capture), with new ranks they gain points which can be placed in certain perks. It's a somewhat artificial system and not one I'm much of a fan of, would much rather see the kind of system you describe.