KEN IS BROKEN!!!

[Archangel]

Whoever got 3 dp's into VT2 into CA in ONE COMBO!!???. Maybe it's me but I refuse to accept that

[mrobson83]

Are you properly defending against easy stuff like that? Or are you walking into it and giving your opponent free punishes?

Learn the matchup against your main and stop expecting free wins and complaining when things go against your expectations. I don’t think there’s a number high enough to count the sheer number of threads with this exact topic.

[Danny DeVito with a Gun]

So if I spend my entire VT bar and CA bar, I do high damage? Who would've thought

Actually wait, did the Ken do a DP INTO VT2? Because if he did that and went into super, that isn't even high damage unless it killed lol

[Archangel]

Originally posted by Danny DeVito with a Gun:

So if I spend my entire VT bar and CA bar, I do high damage? Who would've thought

Actually wait, did the Ken do a DP INTO VT2? Because if he did that and went into super, that isn't even high damage unless it killed lol

Well it did

[Ride the Lightning]

Originally posted by Archangel:

Maybe it's me

This

[Brussels_Sprouts_Are_Not_Food]

As per my other thread, Ken is cheap as. Very broken character.

Almost as cheap as Sagat.

[Jack Frost]

Defense + counterattack is the key.

[shingomouri]

I don't think Ken is broken, however I believe Ryu and Ken have resources that should be nerfed, because these resources reward players who are more sloppy and careless, such as hurtboxes, hitboxes and the damage caused by certain moves.

Some moves by Ryu and Ken have a very high damage, even without the need to use an EX bar. Their opponent can have a big health advantage, but just 1 bnb combo of them with few hits or commands is enough to tie or even turn the game without much effort. A successful mash and the match can turn smoothly... To corner is easy after a strong shoryuken, or EX-Shoryuken in Ken's case.

Furthermore, some V-Trigger versions that are strong and can easily turn the match last a long time and only need 2 stocks of V-Gauge to trigger. Ryu's VT2 from season V is a serious problem, as it basically gives unbalanced power to players who don't have a consistent game to pursue victory more fairly. The super punch of VT2 has a absurd damage.

These characters' hurtboxes are also unintuitive to opponents. They spam mid-range strong blows and don't even touch the opponent, but the game system understands that it had contacted to recognize a crush counter... To the opponent is no the same situation - the animation of the opponent's blow touches too much Ryu's animation or Ken, but the hurtbox system doesn't recognize contact. When you skip a hadouken or some moves and miss a little while the blow, even if the foot crosses Ryu or Ken's head, the system simply does not recognize the hit in some situations close to the startup.

[Danny DeVito with a Gun]

Originally posted by shingomouri:

I don't think Ken is broken, however I believe Ryu and Ken have resources that should be nerfed, because these resources reward players who are more sloppy and careless, such as hurtboxes, hitboxes and the damage caused by certain moves.

Rewarding "sloppy and careless players" is such a subjective statement that I can say the same thing about any character that's mid tier and above in this game. Nerfing characters because they can be annoying in low ranks is a terrible reason to nerf.

Originally posted by shingomouri:

Some moves by Ryu and Ken have a very high damage, even without the need to use an EX bar. Their opponent can have a big health advantage, but just 1 bnb combo of them with few hits or commands is enough to tie or even turn the game without much effort. A successful mash and the match can turn smoothly... To corner is easy after a strong shoryuken, or EX-Shoryuken in Ken's case.

Ryu and Ken having good damage isn't exactly a rare trait. Shotos are known for good damage output outside of Dan. Ryu was still pulling off good damage when he was complete garbage in season 2. Majority of the cast can pull off the damage you're describing from a BnB. Ken has literally had some of the best okizeme in the game since launch, that's a character trait. So his corner carry shouldn't be surprising. I don't even know why Ryu and Ken are suddenly known for their corner carry when there are others in the cast that can carry to a corner far faster than them (Karin, Seth, Akuma, Rashid, etc.)

Originally posted by shingomouri:

Furthermore, some V-Trigger versions that are strong and can easily turn the match last a long time and only need 2 stocks of V-Gauge to trigger. Ryu's VT2 from season V is a serious problem, as it basically gives unbalanced power to players who don't have a consistent game to pursue victory more fairly. The super punch of VT2 has a absurd damage.

Ryu's VT2 is so good that no top Ryu is using it anymore...

The only things Ryu's VT2 has over VT1 is a long timer and easy execution. VT1 easily trumps it in damage, stun and pressure. Neither VT is even that powerful in terms of the cast, they're just decent.

Originally posted by shingomouri:

These characters' hurtboxes are also unintuitive to opponents. They spam mid-range strong blows and don't even touch the opponent, but the game system understands that it had contacted to recognize a crush counter... To the opponent is no the same situation - the animation of the opponent's blow touches too much Ryu's animation or Ken, but the hurtbox system doesn't recognize contact. When you skip a hadouken or some moves and miss a little while the blow, even if the foot crosses Ryu or Ken's head, the system simply does not recognize the hit in some situations close to the startup.

I don't even understand this complaint. Their hurtboxes don't make sense or something? If you compare Ryu and Ken to the cast, their hurtboxes are standard. If have an issue with the hurtboxes, that's an SFV issue, not a Ryu/Ken one.

[shingomouri]

Originally posted by Danny DeVito with a Gun:

Originally posted by shingomouri:

I don't think Ken is broken, however I believe Ryu and Ken have resources that should be nerfed, because these resources reward players who are more sloppy and careless, such as hurtboxes, hitboxes and the damage caused by certain moves.

Rewarding "sloppy and careless players" is such a subjective statement that I can say the same thing about any character that's mid tier and above in this game. Nerfing characters because they can be annoying in low ranks is a terrible reason to nerf.

Originally posted by shingomouri:

Some moves by Ryu and Ken have a very high damage, even without the need to use an EX bar. Their opponent can have a big health advantage, but just 1 bnb combo of them with few hits or commands is enough to tie or even turn the game without much effort. A successful mash and the match can turn smoothly... To corner is easy after a strong shoryuken, or EX-Shoryuken in Ken's case.

Ryu and Ken having good damage isn't exactly a rare trait. Shotos are known for good damage output outside of Dan. Ryu was still pulling off good damage when he was complete garbage in season 2. Majority of the cast can pull off the damage you're describing from a BnB. Ken has literally had some of the best okizeme in the game since launch, that's a character trait. So his corner carry shouldn't be surprising. I don't even know why Ryu and Ken are suddenly known for their corner carry when there are others in the cast that can carry to a corner far faster than them (Karin, Seth, Akuma, Rashid, etc.)

Originally posted by shingomouri:

Furthermore, some V-Trigger versions that are strong and can easily turn the match last a long time and only need 2 stocks of V-Gauge to trigger. Ryu's VT2 from season V is a serious problem, as it basically gives unbalanced power to players who don't have a consistent game to pursue victory more fairly. The super punch of VT2 has a absurd damage.

Ryu's VT2 is so good that no top Ryu is using it anymore...

The only things Ryu's VT2 has over VT1 is a long timer and easy execution. VT1 easily trumps it in damage, stun and pressure. Neither VT is even that powerful in terms of the cast, they're just decent.

Originally posted by shingomouri:

These characters' hurtboxes are also unintuitive to opponents. They spam mid-range strong blows and don't even touch the opponent, but the game system understands that it had contacted to recognize a crush counter... To the opponent is no the same situation - the animation of the opponent's blow touches too much Ryu's animation or Ken, but the hurtbox system doesn't recognize contact. When you skip a hadouken or some moves and miss a little while the blow, even if the foot crosses Ryu or Ken's head, the system simply does not recognize the hit in some situations close to the startup.

I don't even understand this complaint. Their hurtboxes don't make sense or something? If you compare Ryu and Ken to the cast, their hurtboxes are standard. If have an issue with the hurtboxes, that's an SFV issue, not a Ryu/Ken one.

When I refer to the inattention and lack of concern of these players, I mean precisely these "differentiated" hurtboxes of them. It's Ryu and Ken's specific issue. I face Ken and Ryu every day, and I know their hurtbox doesn't work the same way as the other 40+ characters, getting to the point where I have to execute certain strategies differently for them because I know the blows won't hit them. Some blows given automatically by their players are unharmed when the opponent manages to get away, since the retaliation does not hit, despite the animation appearing and very much that the opponent's blow hit, even coinciding with Ryu and Ken's own animations.

The hits that deal a lot of damage are also above average compared to the staff of more than 40 characters. The fact that they can apply devastating combos without needing the jump attack and without using an EX bar at all means something. Even though there are characters who can deal this damage greater than Ryu and Ken, there is some compensation, such as a low life (like Akuma and Karin, for example) or a slow mobility (like Zangief and Abigail). Ryu and Ken are mobility balanced and have a high health.

Tops don't use VT2 doesn't mean VT2 isn't strong. However, for this factor, naturally Ryu's opponents at the high level will avoid the game with closer contact so as not to take damage from VT2, making the game more time consuming when VT2 is engaged and something very predictable. The remedy for this would be to weaken VT II more, as the opponent would open up more of his breach, knowing that VT II is not so decisive, balancing the risk/reward factor. In the current context, there's no point in exposing yourself so much when Ryu's retaliation with VTII simply has the potential to end more than 2/3 of your life.

[Danny DeVito with a Gun]

Originally posted by shingomouri:

Originally posted by Danny DeVito with a Gun:

Rewarding "sloppy and careless players" is such a subjective statement that I can say the same thing about any character that's mid tier and above in this game. Nerfing characters because they can be annoying in low ranks is a terrible reason to nerf.



Ryu and Ken having good damage isn't exactly a rare trait. Shotos are known for good damage output outside of Dan. Ryu was still pulling off good damage when he was complete garbage in season 2. Majority of the cast can pull off the damage you're describing from a BnB. Ken has literally had some of the best okizeme in the game since launch, that's a character trait. So his corner carry shouldn't be surprising. I don't even know why Ryu and Ken are suddenly known for their corner carry when there are others in the cast that can carry to a corner far faster than them (Karin, Seth, Akuma, Rashid, etc.)



Ryu's VT2 is so good that no top Ryu is using it anymore...

The only things Ryu's VT2 has over VT1 is a long timer and easy execution. VT1 easily trumps it in damage, stun and pressure. Neither VT is even that powerful in terms of the cast, they're just decent.



I don't even understand this complaint. Their hurtboxes don't make sense or something? If you compare Ryu and Ken to the cast, their hurtboxes are standard. If have an issue with the hurtboxes, that's an SFV issue, not a Ryu/Ken one.

When I refer to the inattention and lack of concern of these players, I mean precisely these "differentiated" hurtboxes of them. It's Ryu and Ken's specific issue. I face Ken and Ryu every day, and I know their hurtbox doesn't work the same way as the other 40+ characters, getting to the point where I have to execute certain strategies differently for them because I know the blows won't hit them. Some blows given automatically by their players are unharmed when the opponent manages to get away, since the retaliation does not hit, despite the animation appearing and very much that the opponent's blow hit, even coinciding with Ryu and Ken's own animations.

The hits that deal a lot of damage are also above average compared to the staff of more than 40 characters. The fact that they can apply devastating combos without needing the jump attack and without using an EX bar at all means something. Even though there are characters who can deal this damage greater than Ryu and Ken, there is some compensation, such as a low life (like Akuma and Karin, for example) or a slow mobility (like Zangief and Abigail). Ryu and Ken are mobility balanced and have a high health.

Tops don't use VT2 doesn't mean VT2 isn't strong. However, for this factor, naturally Ryu's opponents at the high level will avoid the game with closer contact so as not to take damage from VT2, making the game more time consuming when VT2 is engaged and something very predictable. The remedy for this would be to weaken VT II more, as the opponent would open up more of his breach, knowing that VT II is not so decisive, balancing the risk/reward factor. In the current context, there's no point in exposing yourself so much when Ryu's retaliation with VTII simply has the potential to end more than 2/3 of your life.

I've been playing the game since season 1 and I have no idea what you're talking about with Ryu and Ken's hurtboxes, there is nothing unusual about them that is specific to them. SFV has some janky hurtboxes, they've been adjusted throughout the years, they're still kinda weird. Still not a Ryu/Ken issue. The only cases of hurtboxes in the game's history that have forced character-specific combo routes have been with Zangief, Alex and Abigail.

Shotos have good damage, this isn't wild. If you really wanna look for a justification, how about the fact that Ryu and Ken's pressure and mix ups are at best mediocre and have to work harder than someone like Urien for that good damage? Ken's mix up game actually does improve somewhat with his VT1, but Ryu still struggles with pressure even with his improved kit in VT1. A crouching MK from Karin or Seth is a hell of a lot scarier to be hit by than one from Ryu or Ken. The big damage you're describing doesn't happen as often without a jump-in or meter.

You understand that the biggest issue with Ryu's VT2 is that it doesn't change how he plays/how you fight him? It's extra damage on top of a normal Ryu gameplan. If the Ryu was struggling to open up his opponent before (which is one of Ryu's main problems), VT2 won't help with that. Guessing with the parry is not a viable answer. The fact that Ryu's normals are buffed in VT1 means that his pressure (slightly) improves, better chip damage, better ways to force a mistake. When VT1 is active and Ryu's in your face, you have to change your gameplan to accommodate. Even when you're on opposite ends of the screen, at least VT1 gives Ryu a buffed fireball.

Compare Ryu's VT2 to other VTs and how they change the neutral without even hitting the opponent yet. Guile's VT1 allows him to control the ground with multiple fireballs on the screen. Bison's VT2 forces you into a guessing situation through Psycho Crusher and the threat of a command grab. Hell, even Ken's VT2 drastically improves his whiff punish game when it's full, forcing you to be mindful of distance between you and him or else you eat 500+ damage. In comparison, Ryu's VT2 tacks on 150 damage to a special. It's not taking 2/3rds of your health bar like you're describing. I know because I've used it. And I've been hit by it. As Seth. The other VTs I mentioned have far greater damage potential than Ryu's