SF veterans, can someone bust the myth of hit confirm?

[DrDoom]

I know how important this is and after my first 100 hours in fighting games, I am still pretty hopeless in executing this consistently. I am not frustrated, just intrigued.

When you do it in practice mode, you could just choose between do the combo when hit and not do the combo when the first hit doesn't land. Even if it's just a Yes or No scenario, it's still freaking hard when you consider the active and recovery time of a light attack is less than 1/6 of a second. If I remember correct, it's around the limit of human reaction time. Is it for real people could train his reaction to such perfection? And in reality, combat is way more complicated than training.

I am wondering, to do hit confirm consistently in real combat

1. Should I go with the first 2 hits no matter what (buffer the second attack) and depending on hit or miss, I react to press or not press the button for combo? I am speaking theoretically, don't know how hard it is to execute this strategy. Right now, I am really trying my damnedest to react to the first hit and find it quite impossible to execute

2. Is hit confirm purely reactionary or experience based? I mean if I know the oppoent's attacks well, then I could practically just go with the combo when those attacks are blocked or whiffed. Of course, to do this, I need to be really well versed at those attacks.

I was told I don't need super human reflex to play SFV well but right now, I honestly want some super human reflex. How could someone actually get good with this technique outside training mode?

[freefall]

Well, I'm also playing KOF XIII with the OP, where there's no medium attacks, which is why I've always emphasized hit confirming with light attacks. I spent more time playing KOF than SF, so I've always learnt each character's light hit confirms, because you're much more likely to land a poke than a hard attack.

[DrDoom]

TheTempa původně napsal:

With Cammy if you really want to hit confirm you can mash cr.mp.
But honestly, I started sf5 (and fighting games) one year ago and I don't think you should focus on that. Blocking and punishing unsafe moves is the most important thing to get better at imho.

Appreciate your input, I don't have any problem getting opinion that doesn't agree with mine or other's. I am definitely working on punishing "unsafe" moves.

While my inexperience didn't allow me to tell what moves are unsafe on the fly, I am trying to play against the same PC characters consecutively and practice in training mode to learn their moves. For example, I got beaten by Karin (level 7) like 15 times in a row but after training against her moves and watching youtube videos, I improved to win 2 in 10. Still miserable figure but feeling more confident after I learnt what her moves do and what are the mix up. Plan to do the same with other characters (already did that with M. Bison, he's a nigjtmare to fight against. Zangief. Abagail and Chun Li are way better to fight against as PC opponent.)

[DrDoom]

freefall původně napsal:

Well, I'm also playing KOF XIII with the OP, where there's no medium attacks, which is why I've always emphasized hit confirming with light attacks. I spent more time playing KOF than SF, so I've always learnt each character's light hit confirms, because you're much more likely to land a poke than a hard attack.

Feel pretty comfortable with Cammy's medium attack when I am on the attacking end. I am just hoping to do the same with light attack when I am on the defending end. There are times only light attacks will work but it will take time, I understand

[Xaks32]

Chummy Elia původně napsal:

Will try to apply your advice and simplify my game. Thanks, dude. You are amazing. You know, I am starting to appreciate the fighting game genre but it's sad that it's not easy to find some good structured advice like those for learning say tennis or piano. So, your advice is highly appreciated.

That's the beauty of fighting games, they allow you to learn them whichever way you want. Some people will read frame-data, others will rather watch tournament or youtube videos, you can also learn everything by pure practice against other players online.

It all really depends on your tastes.

[freefall]

Keep in mind you're also still getting used to your arcade stick. I've been playing fighting games for 20 years, but even so, I still need to practice my hit confirms because not all games have the same input tolerances.

[DJukor]

Hit confirms often refer to moves that ether hit 2 times and can be cancled.
Or have long stun times that it gives you time to react to it.
Or multi hit links that canot be punished on block but are canclable such as Standing MP in to Standing MK that a fev characters have.
Hitconfirm Lights are only a thing when you know its a 100% sure punish fro some moves.

Almost no one can hitconfirm from a single Lights what they usualy end up doing is above stated is use lights as 100% sure punishes for some moves. That is they didnt hitconfirm in to a light they jsut knew it whas gona hit.
Only way to acualy hitconfrim from lights are lights that combo in to one an other.
Sakura has the best one in the game in her LP LP in to LK becose her LK has abnormal range and can be cacled in to LP shoryuken and Ex shoryuken.

[DrDoom]

Djukor původně napsal:

Hit confirms often refer to moves that ether hit 2 times and can be cancled.
Or have long stun times that it gives you time to react to it.
Or multi hit links that canot be punished on block but are canclable such as Standing MP in to Standing MK that a fev characters have.
Hitconfirm Lights are only a thing when you know its a 100% sure punish fro some moves.

Almost no one can hitconfirm from a single Lights what they usualy end up doing is above stated is use lights as 100% sure punishes for some moves. That is they didnt hitconfirm in to a light they jsut knew it whas gona hit.
Only way to acualy hitconfrim from lights are lights that combo in to one an other.
Sakura has the best one in the game in her LP LP in to LK becose her LK has abnormal range and can be cacled in to LP shoryuken and Ex shoryuken.

Thanks, dude. I have many people correcting my misconception. I was too "honest" and naive to believe I should practice until I could hit confirm from anything. Dumb beginner question LoL

[DrDoom]

Seijinho původně napsal:

Chummy Elia původně napsal:

Will try to apply your advice and simplify my game. Thanks, dude. You are amazing. You know, I am starting to appreciate the fighting game genre but it's sad that it's not easy to find some good structured advice like those for learning say tennis or piano. So, your advice is highly appreciated.

That's the beauty of fighting games, they allow you to learn them whichever way you want. Some people will read frame-data, others will rather watch tournament or youtube videos, you can also learn everything by pure practice against other players online.

It all really depends on your tastes.

I totally agree. I am on the hunt for my own way of learning SFV.

I am 35, hardly some lad who knows nothing about my own weaknesses and strengths. The god has given me an amazing gift that I am very good at figures, written words and diagrams. That's why I was very good at study but he also made me pathetic at learning anything that is dynamic and flowing. While I could get the top grade at writing and reading English (not my primary language), my spoken English and listening were practically broken when I first graduated from university. The variety and different accents got me good. For some reason, I could hardly learn by listening. Later, I discovered I had to play to my strength and taught myself phonetics. By looking up the pronunciation on dictationary over more than 10 years, I have managed to become a decent communicator. I have found that if I could make something relatively static for learning purpose, I could contemplate and have a chance. The same applied when I learned tennis, I had to read books, get some advice that's broken into small steps, contemplated, used my imagaination. After years of trial and error, I finally started to play more decently.

For my escapade into SFV, deep in my mind, I am expecting I will use some weird-assss way to learn it. I have received loads of good comments, I am trying them out to figure out the best way for me to progress. I will be not surprised at all if I learn much slower than most people. It's so freaking dynamic!!! Hopefully, I will figure it out some distant time in the future.

[freefall]

I normally don't recommend this to beginners, but since you're quite analytical and like figures, I would suggest spending time just learning frame data for your moves. This is pretty difficult, but SFV's practice mode has made things much easier.

If your Training Mode is set on default, you should have frame data on. That will show characters in blue when they're in frame neutral (can move), or in red when they're either in hit or block stun, or locked in an attack animation, and therefore cannot do anything.

If you set the AI to say level 8 and just block everything (except the occasional throw), you'll start noticing when the AI is fully commited into an attack and cannot break out of it, or when it's recovering from an attack.

You can learn to do the same with your Cammy. There's a bar at the damage info that fills up when you're stuck in attack, hit or block animation, and empties as you recover. Set the AI to block, then throw out all your normals (including your missed throw animation), specials and Critical Art and see how long each move leaves you unable to respond.

Always remember SFV runs at 60 frames per second. So if for example, her V-Skill takes about 2 seconds from start to finish, it means she's committed for 120 frames before she can do anything else.

Now for some real frame data. Cammy's LP takes 4 frames to launch (not recover, just launch), and her MP takes 7. If you remember that advanced Infiltration video about Counter Hit confirms, her LP normally only causes 4 frames of stun, but on a Counter Hit, it stuns for an additional 3 frames, making it 7 frames in total. That's why you can combo LP > MP on a Counter Hit, for example.

Pay attention to how much time Cammy needs to recover using the frame counter. Moves that are frame positive on block means Cammy recovers before her opponent and can continue pressuring with another fast offensive move, like a LP, for example. Moves that are neutral on block means both characters recover at the same time. Moves that are minus on block allow your opponent to respond first as Cammy is still recovering. Now try turning off the blocking, and see the difference between hitting and blocking in your offensive and defensive options.

It's very complicated, and if it's too much for you at this point, you can ignore it. But at some point later in time, even if you can't study the actual numbers, just pay attention to what turns red and blue when you're practising.

[DenjinAkira]

In my opinion, Nash and Guile both have very easy light confirms into special, and Nash's light confirm into CA is pretty easy too, be it crouch short xx crouch jab xx special, or just crouch jab x2 xx special. I don't even press the buttons that fast, more like link timing than a chain. I dont know who you are using but consider changing character for a bit? Urien, Balrog, Bison and several others are also pretty easy with this.

Word of note, even Daigo messed up a jab confirm at EVO Japan recently, the commentators even made a joke out of it and called it a block confirm, as he did IIRC 2x crouch jab xx flashkick even though it was blocked.

Also, a friend of mine who started with sf4, and was a link-god, has struggled with the smaller confirm windows (less normals) in sf5. I would say it is important for intermediate players and will help you level up your game a lot, being about to punish -4, or even -3 moves. He uses Akuma, and he has to consider whether the opponent is standing or not, and whether he can do light confirm xx tatsu or light confirm xx DP.

[zoiks]

Two light attacks as a hit confirm is doable, but is not an easy thing to do consistently. You're talking around 0.2s to react and input a cancel/link. Average human reaction time is 0.25s and input time can factor in even with motion buffering.

Cammy's reasonable hit confirms go from:

• st. HK (CC fishing)
  
• f+HK
  
• cr. MP(st. MP)->cr. MP
  
• cr. LP(counter)->cr. MP
  
• st. LK(counter)->b+MP
  
• cr. LK->cr. LP
  
• st. MP
  
• cr. MP

in order of diffculty to confirm consistently, very easy to very hard.

Note that her HK attacks have terrible hurt boxes, and multi-attack link confirms are not totally safe on block so it's not a good idea to be too predictable with them against competent opponents with meter... unless you like eating V-reversals/EX/CA.

[DrDoom]

zoiks původně napsal:

Two light attacks as a hit confirm is doable, but is not an easy thing to do consistently. You're talking around 0.2s to react and input a cancel/link. Average human reaction time is 0.25s and input time can factor in even with motion buffering.

Cammy's reasonable hit confirms go from:

• st. HK (CC fishing)
  
• f+HK
  
• cr. MP(st. MP)->cr. MP
  
• cr. LP(counter)->cr. MP
  
• st. LK(counter)->b+MP
  
• cr. LK->cr. LP
  
• st. MP
  
• cr. MP

in order of diffculty to confirm consistently, very easy to very hard.

Note that her HK attacks have terrible hurt boxes, and multi-attack link confirms are not totally safe on block so it's not a good idea to be too predictable with them against competent opponents with meter... unless you like eating V-reversals/EX/CA.

Thanks for pointing out. I have read a guide from another person who list all the possible hit confirm. I didn't even consider some are harder, stupid me.

And the meter awareness thingy, I typically play against low ranked players and didn't realize how important it is. Good reminder.

[DrDoom]

The Best Bipson původně napsal:

In my opinion, Nash and Guile both have very easy light confirms into special, and Nash's light confirm into CA is pretty easy too, be it crouch short xx crouch jab xx special, or just crouch jab x2 xx special. I don't even press the buttons that fast, more like link timing than a chain. I dont know who you are using but consider changing character for a bit? Urien, Balrog, Bison and several others are also pretty easy with this.

Word of note, even Daigo messed up a jab confirm at EVO Japan recently, the commentators even made a joke out of it and called it a block confirm, as he did IIRC 2x crouch jab xx flashkick even though it was blocked.

Also, a friend of mine who started with sf4, and was a link-god, has struggled with the smaller confirm windows (less normals) in sf5. I would say it is important for intermediate players and will help you level up your game a lot, being about to punish -4, or even -3 moves. He uses Akuma, and he has to consider whether the opponent is standing or not, and whether he can do light confirm xx tatsu or light confirm xx DP.

I use Cammy as several people ahve pointed out she is beginner friendly and I should stick with her but yes, I always have wanted to play other characters. M Bison sounds really interesting given how hard it is to fight him. I might switch for a while just for education purpose.

Thanks for the intersting sharing. I am not alone in this struggle. Even good players can botch this, got your message. Thanks, buddy.

[Benjamin Franklin]

Just found this post a year after it was posted...
I have to ask, have you kept up with the game since then?
I relate to what you said about picking up a fightstick and dedicating 100 hours of time to getting good. I picked up the game with absolutely no prior experience in the fighting game genre. Personally, coming back to the game every few months or so, I gain deeper levels of knowledge and mechanical skill. It feels rewarding winning a match because of a skill I noticed I lacked, practiced, and then mastered: hit confirms, anti-airs, learning frame data. Not sure what else to say... it was just a really neat experience learning all this stuff about the game over a couple years. I can't believe I used to think fighting games was just random button mashing!

[pepe_luis]

Sorry for reading this a year after. I am in the same trouble of hit confirming. Training alot with IA and dummies. More than 150hrs in sfv (I used to play sfiv as well against ia and other SF versions) As you do, I also play Cammy. I'm stuck to her in every SF version I've ever played. I've started managing hit confirm with st LP + cr LP+spiral arrow/cannon spike or cr MP+cr MP + spiral arrow. Nevertheless single hit + special is too hard for me. I've noticed as well that MP/MK, if you succeed with them, let you more margin for connecting them with specials or HP+special (if you used MP before). Practizing with a dummy or IA is affordable. Nevertheless IA tend to react always with the same patterns and when you go for real players you may feel your learnt reactions are useless against many of them. I am also trying to react after blocking instead of launching attacks, but again too hard for me with real players. Well, still very frustrating for me and yet too addictive. Maybe I said nothing new for you. I only say if you want to beat and practize with another Cammy you can search for "ppluis" in SFV. That Cammy will be pleased to fight you ;D. Good luck!!!