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Good post. I just wanna add though that lore-wise, there is only one Vestige. We may play in an MMO with millions of players, but as far as the lore is concerned, there is only one Vestige. So there is only one potential Vampire Lord being created here.
I´ve been playing the PTS for awhile, and it takes me like 3 minutes to barely kill a troll with 810 cp character with endgame gear, using the build i use in the actual game on my ungeared, underleveled character, which doesnt even take more than 20 seconds to kill, hardly 10... Its absolutely atrocious what they've done to vampires.
As for your reasoning, the vestige questline was the worst quest i´ve experienced so far. What is nice about RPGs is to become your own character, instead of being some chosen, pretedermined character... I enjoyed Starting in Elsweyr, cause i could have been anyone. Same for the experience in morrowind, even if their main quests go through linear motions, the narrative doesnt revolve around being some sort of chosen one, but just someone becoming the one that makes a difference, by their own means. It's the reason i never used shouts in Skyrim unless they were mandatory for progression, "I´m the dragonborn? no im whoever the hell i want to be, thank you very much". You know, actual roleplaying.
Vampires now are utter garbage.
I'm not someone who cares much about character identity or lore at all. I'm spending all my time raiding and pushing endgame in PvE. It's all about DPS, viability and performance.
Just saying so you know where my opinion is coming from.
The current vampire skills are simply ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and won't find a place in any serious build. Vampire is only taken for the passives, nothing else. The only people using Vampire skills are Roleplayers.
With the 5-6 latest patches these passives became less and less important. Tanks drop it, Healers drop it, DDs drop it. It's still perfectly viable, but nothing compared to how good, and sometimes even vital, it used to be.
On PTS it's finally interesting again to be Vampire. The combination of AB & SF is "high risk, high reward" and in the hand of a good player it becomes a parse machine. Also the other abilities (Ultimate excluded) will find a spot in more situational setups.
So compared to the current Vampire I have no reason to dislike the changes to Vampire.
R.I.P to those who thought that ZOS would bring a Patch that has a balance for every kind of player. Atleast 1 playerbase is getting rekt everytime they are doing this.
They are legitimatelly worse for the main reason i pointed out... There is no build diversity within vampires coming for greymoor. I don't care about drastic changes, if there was different build potentials when becoming a vampire, but now they do not mesh with anything that existed before the update, its objectively less diverse and flexible.
Up till today, being a vampire was a minute set of buffs and debuffs, that wouldnt give an advantage or disadvantage, simply, an optional route for a character to have. Now, i repeat, there is no build diversity, if you play as a vampire in greymoor, you can only use vampire skills, which makes countering all the more obvious, since... "Hey look, a vampire, so damn predictable, the suckers have no build options, easy prey"... While right now, they arent predictable, since they are hardly a thing. Current vampire is just a choice, their skills are highly dismissable, and if you want to use any particular, one, so be it, i personally used the bat swarm morph as one of my 2 ultimates... Another skill that's being gutted. And the rest, are pretty negligable...
The problem isnt just the lack of diversity, but how the nerfs to stamina(magicka consumption affect the ability to use skills outside of the vampire skill line, and how punishing it is for no good reason, not even "high risk/high reward", no. And new vampire skills that push recovery are just bad, nothing you couldnt do better with existing skills for NON vampire and vampire characters...You clearly don't care about the theme, or what your character is, since to you this is another mmo, and parsing, and frivolous language is all that matters in an mmoRPG, so im gonna speak your language. No theme, no lore, no identity.
What part of taking 3 minutes to kill a troll vs 20 seconds or less is difficult to comprehend? with the same exact build, with the same exact rotation... This isnt a rethorical question, can you tell me which part you didnt get? or you're just being a contrarian for the sake of it? Cause that's pretty common within mmo communities.
You know what objetivity means? im not being condescending or sharing an opinion, i´ve been doing the numbers after a looooong time playing as a vampire, and unless you play a strictly vampire build, they will cease to be viable with any other build. Numbers don't lie or have an opinion. Once the PTS servers are up again, i´ll make video comparisons, so you can see for yourself, then again, you probably still won't care, even with demonstrable facts, cause "muh reasons".
Question, do you care about it? or you don't, it´s a real question. If you don't i´d ask, "why did you reply to the post"... If you do, i´ll share the footage once i can record it, so you can judge for yourself, does that sound ok?
1)
You're saying that there is no build diversity with the new Vampire. Indeed, there is no diversity. On TRE I've seen 2 different builds at the current state that push higher than non-Vamp builds. But why would I doom that? Diversity will always lack once you push. Right now it doesn't matter whether you're Vampire or not. If you ain't going for Vampire, then you still perfectly fine because it's not a must have. On PTS you atleast have a reason to go Vampire (if it stays the way it is until now, which I doubt) in terms of DPS.
2)
In one part you talk about being predictable as Vampire because you're limited to only using Vampire skills.
Being predictable is only a PvP problem, so.... I can't really say anything to that because I see PvP as pretty much failed anyways.
Nothing limits you to only using Vampire skills
3)
The nerfs to sustain are not a problem in my opinion. The damage is higher and sustain is still very good. We've spent more than just some hours on PTS and had no problems at all.
Is the nerf a good thing? I can't say. Sustain on Live is really good and having less won't / shouldn't trouble anyone. Players will adapt.
To me it seems like you're upset that idc about the theme aspect of the game? Well, I can't really help it. I played many MMOs and I simply only care about pure maxing out. That's the way I enjoy playing ESO.
4)
To the part with the troll fight I don't really know what you're trying to say.
If you're taking 3 minutes to kill a troll on PTS with "Endgame" Gear, then your setup obv. sucks. (Don't take this as an insult pls). I would like to know what you were running.
Nothing got nerfed so hard that it would go from 20secs. to 3 minutes. DPS on PTS is/was higher than on Live.
5)
You don't have to make me a video or run the numbers for me. I've completed every content at the highest difficulty on Live and I've done the new HMs on PTS. I know what the changes are and what they mean to builds.
6)
I answered because I wanted to give my opinion to the new vampire changes from my POV.
You said that Vampires are utter garbage now. And that's just no true.
So you're asking me to take your word at face value, and dismiss my first hand experience which im offering to show proof of... What is this, dismissiveness, denial? or both? Vampire are worse than they were, because before they could be anything, now they can ONLY be vampires. Its as if Dark Elves were only viable dual wielding, or Wood Elves with a bow... Why can't vampires use normal skills without being punished for it, and pigeon holed into only using vampire skills?
It isnt remotely insulting to say "your build sucks" since it isnt even my build or anything, my build works fine in the current game, cause its not a "vampire build"(since such thing would suck), its just a build like any other. While in the PTS, i made a 810 cp character, bought the vampire thingy, made a build identical to mine, distributed all the CPs, and it came by default with a 160 cp set... While my cahracter is still using lvl 44 training gear at CP 87, and he has no problem dishing damage, or stamina shortages.
It's not rocket science. Less options is always clearly worste. Making builds unviable just because you prefer to be a vampire is objectively worse. It isnt helping anyone when half of the community denies things that don't affect them, and screw over the other half affected by it. So you're having fun in the PTS, well, its gonna suck for all players that like having a vampire character when it goes live.
Just because you don't do pvp, doesnt mean it isnt an actual problem, the world doesnt revolve around you, and all other players you see around you aren't bots you know... Neither am i. I don't play pvp either, but i see how it´ll clearly be an issue, but i have the consciousness to realize is gonna have adverse side effects beyond my own experience. So much for empathy.
I´m in a guild of actual vampires among other guilds, and everyone is rightfully upset, since, noone wants to play such narrow playstyle, and want to keep their character as they are... It really isnt complicated to understand.
Don't take any of this as an attack either, we are having a discussion, but you're dismissing just too much because it "doesnt affect you"... Sure, but it does affect others, something to consider.
I am fine if you believe into what you experience instead of what I say.
I could also ask you, why you think that Vampires are limited to ONLY Vampire skills and nothing else. What's hindering you to just put Frenzy or Aeterial Burst on your Bar together with other abilities from your class?
I've played on PTS. I have done the newest content on max. difficulty on Vamp. DD.
I have my answers about how PvE will be next patch if it stays the way it is.
I don't need you to believe me.
If your build is working on live and dropping off that dramatically like you explained it before, then you made major mistakes right from the base.
I don't wanna argue too much about that, since you seem to be a bit triggered.
Would be interesting what your "build" is.
As I mentioned above: Why do you think you have less options? Are you talking about the abilities when you're in your ultimate form or what?
That's the only thing that would make sense for me why we are talking next to each other.
I am not talking about the Vampire Ultimate Form, because it obv. sucks ass and no one will drop their class / weapon skillline ultimates for a vampire ult.
I am talking about Vampire as a Skillline.
In my very first answer I made clear that my opinion is based on a endgame PvE POV.
Everything I talk about is concerning PvE not PvP.
Why do I have to show empathy to PvP players when I made clear that I only talk about PvE?
Tell me how it affects the average PvE player but not those who are playing Endgame?
Summing it up, or this responses are gonna be gigantic.
Not remotely triggered, you've seem to misunderstand that particular aspect. When i said "my build", i was talking of the live game, not the PTS... And by "my build", i´m not talking of some flawless masterful set of skills that aim to destroy the meta, but a simple run of the mill set of skills that work better in the current game than they do in the PTS as vampire, which returns to my main point which you keep avoiding and flashing your clout, but not adressing head on, that many builds will become unviable because of the changes, and will force people to remove their vampirism.
When a "build" made around skills that i just like to use, that arent optimized remotely, work more effective than the brand new vampire skills, we have a problem, an obvious one.
Why the need to overcomplicate something that simple? oh yes, to avoid the obvious response, vampires are worse and have less build options in the upcoming chapter than they had up to date. Even you know that.
I repeat, the stamina is crippling, because you have to build around it, and that's already a waste of points and gear that could be used to push even further other stats... When you (i dont mean you, but a build) have to overcompensate for huge stat holes caused by the new nature of vampires, you're just making them unviable unless they use mostly vampire skills now. Because sure, the costs and regenerations can be worked around, but the work around is already taking away from further potential. For someone that likes to brag about how meta he is, you seem to overlook that aspect. Which you do intentionally. Cause from Greymoor onwards, any vampire will have to be built as a vampire, one will not just be able to be a vampire, and just use normal builds without a drastic reduction in their overall performance.
They also removed the passive that mitigates the health restoration debuff, i generally run at stage 3, and i only have a -25% slower restoration... And any dark elf or breton laughs at the fire damage.
But stay in your echo chamber, it isnt like plenty of pleople with as much experience as your own, and even more aren't pointing it out. But nevermind them, those are bots too, right?
Why do i point any this out? Because if there was an option to keep the old chad vampire, and also have the new virgin greymoor vampire, so those who enjoy the new one like yourself can have it their way, and those who enjoy the old one, like anyone with a bit of rationality do, you'd be against keeping the old one, wouldnt you? Or i just made a far fetched assumption? I´d be ok with the new vampire, if it simply didnt have those huge reductions that force them to play as VAMPIRES and pretty much only that, or be punished rather severly. Every vampire will be the same in greymoor... how much fun... wew...
And yes, the new ultimate is atrocious.
Now that I began to see where your real problem lies, I know what you're trying to say.
Yes, casual players that just punch together some abilities and want to be a Vampire just for fun without adapting anything will have major problems.
(Even though I doubt that the 20% will make a world difference in the content where people use builds without any adaption)
Would I? I won't be hit hard by any changes to Vampire. I am a Healer Main, therefore Vampire is not an option anyway.
Right now the entire Vampire Skillline is simply underwhelming for anyone who is playing the game serious. The abilities are useless or outclassed by others and the passives aren't needed anymore (Even though they are the only reason to even consider Vampire). They wouldn't have to re-work the entire system in my opinion, but definitely changed something.
Also no one is forcing you to play Vampire Abilities. It would make more sense, but I wouldn't call it forced. Replace the spammable with a Vampire spammable and you're fine.
(1 simple adaption)
If you ain't using ANY skill from the line, why would you even get it? The passives were not needed now, and they won't be needed in Greymoor.
Uff lol. I spend a lot of time on the forums and Discord and I know that most of the people appreciate the changes. Mostly for the reasons I stated above.
Not sure where I called anyone something like a bot, but k?
If THAT is your main problem. That it makes it more difficult for casuals to play their build and be Vampire just to be a Vampire, then yes. That's the way it will be. People will have to think wether they wanna be a Vampire and actually use it, or leave it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFAA1yPqCvo
"high quality entertainment, very intellectual" XD
“Vampire Builds” dont and never have existed except for a brief moment in early Cyrodiil where a vampire could pop devouring swarm, leap in to a 20 person raid, and come out with 20 kills and full health.
There are simply builds that incorporate what vampire brings to the table in to their kit for either utility or damage.
New Vampire now has more abilities that can be incorporated in to various builds to augment performance in various circumstances. They are the opposite of gutted at this point.
For a MagSorc for instance, the ability to have Major Sorcery from Surge, then pop Ward and Radiating Regen for survivability while Frenzy is toggled on for what will easily be a total of well over +1000 spell damage will make Frag burst rotations INSANE. Especially if you run Spinners or have Weakness on a back bar and pop it on your primary target. And really any burst damage glass cannon build is going to get a ton of use out of this.
Mist Form will still be an excellent escape tool, an AoE conal stun will be a great addition to any kit that gets up close and personal, and I could keep going on.
The trick will be managing Vampirism level. Personally I feel like remaining around stage 2 will be the sweet spot for people incorporating vampirism in to builds to get the benefits without too much detriment to non-vampire abilities.
People will find ways to make it work. The best builds in ESO have always been about mixing and matching from various trees for best synergy. Vampire has not been gutted, at all.