Nightblade is dog ****

[Chillblast]

greatly regretting my choice of main, focused on mag/stam and its woeful, worse class in the game by far, just hit level 29 and i'm really struggling big time, the health is awful, 3-4 hits from a dungeon/quest boss and i'm down and each hit i land hardly dents their health. wish i went with a tank option. mistakes were made for sure

[CovfefeCat]

Nice how you ignore all the reasons he put forth for why DK's are better, and just say that Nightblades are superior because it takes them more buttons to heal/mitigate than a DK has.

And again, you haven't even gotten to Vet dungeons, you know NOTHING about tanking. You're still relying on abilities and auto attacks to restore resources when we've told you you CAN'T do that in end-game content. If you don't block a bosses auto attack, you will likely get one shot even with 30k HP. You need to be blocking and dodge rolling, and you require instant gratification healing, not heal over time effects.

And again, you keep ignoring the fact we keep telling you that tanks need to support the group. You keep talking about how NB can soak damage just as well as a DK, and we've explained countless times that that isn't your job as a tank. Your job is to CC, debuff the boss, and ocassionally buff the group. Being tanky is just a secondary objective so that you CAN do all those other things. But every example we give you for why one class is better than another you just ignore.

DK tanks make the boss take more than 15% more damage from the rest of the group. As a tank, you can expect to deal 3k DPS optimally, while some DPS in your group deal 60k. You do 5% of what they do. As such you are better off buffing their own DPS with skills that every other class can do better. And since we have no AoE taunt, we need AoE Crowd Control, which Nightblades just lack unless you want to use your Fear ability, which just scatters enemies so the DPS can't cleave them down.

DKs can mass Immobilize, Wardens can mass Slow and Immobilize, Templars I believe have an Ult that applies MAJOR MAIM so the monsters deal 30% less damage to EVERYONE, AND deals stupid strong damage, which is Leagues better than making everyone take 25% less damage and have a small HoT that just overheals everyone assuming the healer is doing their job.

Most of your self-mitigation as a NB is for AoE abilities, while other classes get it passively or through a large damage shield, and since damage shields scale with your resistances it will always be better for a tank to shield himself for 25% of his HP than to heal himself for 25%. Statistically they are identical, but shields allow you to overcap your HP maximum.

And again, DK's get resources from Blocking and occasionally proc'ing off of debuffing the enemies, as well as casting ANY ultimate in the game. Templars get it primarily from corpses. Wardens just tend to have the highest passive regen rate (though you don't restore stamina while holding block, it goes back to DKs and Templars being able to restore stamina while blocking). As a Nightblade, I know we've said this a hundred times already, your resource restore primarily comes from attacking the boss, which you don't have much time to do in end-game. You have to weave in your buffs/debuffs/cc in between your blocks and dodge rolls, manage your potions correctly for the regen buff they give you, and MAYBE get a few auto-attacks in here and there.

Also, other classes just bring static or % based skills, while Nightblades tend to rely on Max Resource scaling. Tanks need to be Hybrids between Magic and Stamina. Use magic for healing, use stamina for blocking and dodge rolling. A Nightblade requires much more of those max resources to squeeze the same amount of healing out of an ability as other classes. It's a matter of efficiency. As a Warden Tank, who you almost never see sadly, with 1 ability I can give the ENTIRE group a 15% damage reduction, and give myself a bonus 8%. With my ult I can make everyone in my group take 30% less damage, but also stun any enemy that gets remotely close to my team. With a single heal ability I can predict a boss attack pattern and effectively full heal everyone in the group except myself, plus my heal ability will then boost everyone's max HP by 15%. And I can morph the ability to make the boss receive 30% less healing if it is a fight in which the boss heals, which is essentially a 30% DPS buff on those fights, and is one of two abilties that have that effect (the other being a DK ult no one runs in PvE), meaning my DPS would need to run Disease damage for the same affect, but Disease and Poison damage are better in PvP than PvE, where the meta is to run Lightning or Fire. Lightning damage makes boss take more damage, Frost damage makes the boss deal less damage, Fire damage is just a DoT but it lets DK's restore magic just by sneezing on the boss.

DKs have passive Spell resist, Wardens have passive spell resist AND physical resist, I forget what Templars bring but I'm pretty sure it's just increased healing, which lets them use 1 ability to go from 1% HP to 100% HP with the same mana cost a Nightblade can heal 33% over 3 seconds. Templars can also heal the group with AoE heals that are meant more to keep him alive, but still come in handy in heavy AoE fights. Strongest of all for Templars is their Shards allow the team to restore resources that any other class would need to slot the Undaunted Orbs ability for.

Nightblades can tank. I'm not arguing against that, no one is. We're just saying they get out-performed in every way in end-game content due to lack of CC, debuff abilities, and a 1 click panic heal.

And when we tell you what those skills are and what they do, you just ignore the fact we ever mentioned them and say we're not being comprehensive enough, and continue asking questions we've already answered.

[Qualily]

Mr. Brownstone původně napsal:

Kenthen původně napsal:

Any Warden that would resort to copypasting Alcast builds would end up running Deep Thoughts. But then Warden would generally be offtanks in a 12 man that also brings a DK, far as I understand it. However, in either case, why would it work for the Warden and not the NB?

Off-tank can drop block from time to time.

If a main tank gets hit by a hard hitting attack while channeling Deep Thoughts, he might get one-shotted or just knocked back into more damage to he needed to avoid and... Get two-shotted.

That makes sense, but consider that you can overlap Mirage (phys and spell resists, AOE resist) and Dark Cloak (32% HOT, 8% DR) with the heal and 30% damage reduction that you get while channeling Deep Thoughts itself. I'm not sure that would be nearly enough, mind you, but it's something.

[Vazkulator]

Mr. Brownstone původně napsal:

Well anyway dude, apparently you're not capable of understanding basic knowledge, maybe you only learn from self experience, I don't know and I don't care. Do what you want in this game.

After all, the whole reason we're here answering you is to HELP you. We have no benefit if you finally realize that sustain is important. Maybe the only benefit is that we'll have one more good tank in our community. Other than that, the sole reason is to help you, I like helping people, I like helping new players, I used to make guides on games, but apparently you can't help everyone.

You had your fun I guess, maybe now you can let me have some fun.

Add me in game and let's do proper dungeons/trials to check if the sustain is really important. We'll have tons of fun (well, I will for sure)

Username: Mr.Brownstone87

thats the problem, youre the one who always see that someone else is wrong when youre the actual problem, i dont know how many hours ive wasted on you by just repeating the same freakin question over and over and over again asking the same simple questions and only getting replies thats completely irrelevant with what im even talking about

what on earth is a sustain check trial ?

[Vazkulator]

Cepheid Variable původně napsal:

Nice how you ignore all the reasons he put forth for why DK's are better, and just say that Nightblades are superior because it takes them more buttons to heal/mitigate than a DK has.

And again, you haven't even gotten to Vet dungeons, you know NOTHING about tanking. You're still relying on abilities and auto attacks to restore resources when we've told you you CAN'T do that in end-game content. If you don't block a bosses auto attack, you will likely get one shot even with 30k HP. You need to be blocking and dodge rolling, and you require instant gratification healing, not heal over time effects.

And again, you keep ignoring the fact we keep telling you that tanks need to support the group. You keep talking about how NB can soak damage just as well as a DK, and we've explained countless times that that isn't your job as a tank. Your job is to CC, debuff the boss, and ocassionally buff the group. Being tanky is just a secondary objective so that you CAN do all those other things. But every example we give you for why one class is better than another you just ignore.

DK tanks make the boss take more than 15% more damage from the rest of the group. As a tank, you can expect to deal 3k DPS optimally, while some DPS in your group deal 60k. You do 5% of what they do. As such you are better off buffing their own DPS with skills that every other class can do better. And since we have no AoE taunt, we need AoE Crowd Control, which Nightblades just lack unless you want to use your Fear ability, which just scatters enemies so the DPS can't cleave them down.

DKs can mass Immobilize, Wardens can mass Slow and Immobilize, Templars I believe have an Ult that applies MAJOR MAIM so the monsters deal 30% less damage to EVERYONE, AND deals stupid strong damage, which is Leagues better than making everyone take 25% less damage and have a small HoT that just overheals everyone assuming the healer is doing their job.

Most of your self-mitigation as a NB is for AoE abilities, while other classes get it passively or through a large damage shield, and since damage shields scale with your resistances it will always be better for a tank to shield himself for 25% of his HP than to heal himself for 25%. Statistically they are identical, but shields allow you to overcap your HP maximum.

And again, DK's get resources from Blocking and occasionally proc'ing off of debuffing the enemies, as well as casting ANY ultimate in the game. Templars get it primarily from corpses. Wardens just tend to have the highest passive regen rate (though you don't restore stamina while holding block, it goes back to DKs and Templars being able to restore stamina while blocking). As a Nightblade, I know we've said this a hundred times already, your resource restore primarily comes from attacking the boss, which you don't have much time to do in end-game. You have to weave in your buffs/debuffs/cc in between your blocks and dodge rolls, manage your potions correctly for the regen buff they give you, and MAYBE get a few auto-attacks in here and there.

Also, other classes just bring static or % based skills, while Nightblades tend to rely on Max Resource scaling. Tanks need to be Hybrids between Magic and Stamina. Use magic for healing, use stamina for blocking and dodge rolling. A Nightblade requires much more of those max resources to squeeze the same amount of healing out of an ability as other classes. It's a matter of efficiency. As a Warden Tank, who you almost never see sadly, with 1 ability I can give the ENTIRE group a 15% damage reduction, and give myself a bonus 8%. With my ult I can make everyone in my group take 30% less damage, but also stun any enemy that gets remotely close to my team. With a single heal ability I can predict a boss attack pattern and effectively full heal everyone in the group except myself, plus my heal ability will then boost everyone's max HP by 15%. And I can morph the ability to make the boss receive 30% less healing if it is a fight in which the boss heals, which is essentially a 30% DPS buff on those fights, and is one of two abilties that have that effect (the other being a DK ult no one runs in PvE), meaning my DPS would need to run Disease damage for the same affect, but Disease and Poison damage are better in PvP than PvE, where the meta is to run Lightning or Fire. Lightning damage makes boss take more damage, Frost damage makes the boss deal less damage, Fire damage is just a DoT but it lets DK's restore magic just by sneezing on the boss.

DKs have passive Spell resist, Wardens have passive spell resist AND physical resist, I forget what Templars bring but I'm pretty sure it's just increased healing, which lets them use 1 ability to go from 1% HP to 100% HP with the same mana cost a Nightblade can heal 33% over 3 seconds. Templars can also heal the group with AoE heals that are meant more to keep him alive, but still come in handy in heavy AoE fights. Strongest of all for Templars is their Shards allow the team to restore resources that any other class would need to slot the Undaunted Orbs ability for.

Nightblades can tank. I'm not arguing against that, no one is. We're just saying they get out-performed in every way in end-game content due to lack of CC, debuff abilities, and a 1 click panic heal.

And when we tell you what those skills are and what they do, you just ignore the fact we ever mentioned them and say we're not being comprehensive enough, and continue asking questions we've already answered.

citation needed in so many places that youre starting to look like a little kid, stop implying that ive said something i havent.

total mega cringe

[CovfefeCat]

Kenthen původně napsal:

Mr. Brownstone původně napsal:

Wait, since when, and how psijic skills give you sustain? Please tell me that you're going to use Deep Thoughts in front of a trial boss, please that's what I want to hear :D:D:D

Dude you just made yourself look very stupid, acting like you know better than us with your low playtime. And the worst part is, you're probably not even ashamed of yourself... Sorry for you

Any Warden that would resort to copypasting Alcast builds would end up running Deep Thoughts. But then Warden would generally be offtanks in a 12 man that also brings a DK, far as I understand it. However, in either case, why would it work for the Warden and not the NB?

The issue is that I see a LOT of tanks run it, and the problem with it is you lower your defenses to do so. And off-tank might be able to handle it if he doesn't currently have aggro. The problem with the skill is you need to drop block to channel, and the passive damage reduction from Psjiic channeling is much lower than holding block (at least 20% lower if not a DK), and sometimes would require you to channel inside an AoE you need to be getting out of, but you can't because you don't have the stamina to dodge roll out until after you channel. I've had too many tanks use that ability in Vet Bloodroot Forge and die cuz they stood in the stupid. And if you constantly have to break the channel to re-position, it isn't very worth the skill slot is it? I think Wardens only get away with it because their passive regen stacks on the restore rate, so they spend less time channeling than other classes. Granted, Nightblades also have increased restore while wearing Heavy Armor, so maybe it would be viable? But again, it requires you do drop block, and Wardens get massive defensive bonuses just from having a frost ability slotted.

It's a great ability, just not when you have aggro on you.

Also, please don't cite Alcast... He's been proven to showcase false builds on his website that he doesn't even run, so that he can outperform other people and say they just haven't mastered the skillsets yet...
Also whenever he wipes in content because he didn't do a mechanic properly, he cries that the game is bugged/unbalanced and he's paying money to ♥♥♥♥♥♥ developers.

[Brownstone]

Vazkulator původně napsal:

Mr. Brownstone původně napsal:

Well anyway dude, apparently you're not capable of understanding basic knowledge, maybe you only learn from self experience, I don't know and I don't care. Do what you want in this game.

After all, the whole reason we're here answering you is to HELP you. We have no benefit if you finally realize that sustain is important. Maybe the only benefit is that we'll have one more good tank in our community. Other than that, the sole reason is to help you, I like helping people, I like helping new players, I used to make guides on games, but apparently you can't help everyone.

You had your fun I guess, maybe now you can let me have some fun.

Add me in game and let's do proper dungeons/trials to check if the sustain is really important. We'll have tons of fun (well, I will for sure)

Username: Mr.Brownstone87

thats the problem, youre the one who always see that someone else is wrong when youre the actual problem, i dont know how many hours ive wasted on you by just repeating the same freakin question over and over and over again asking the same simple questions and only getting replies thats completely irrelevant with what im even talking about

what on earth is a sustain check trial ?

Sustain check trial? I don't know, you tell me.

Dude it's simple, most of the enemies in actual content hit you constantly and it costs stamina to block their attacks. And your stamina recovery is 0 while blocking. So your build somehow needs to keep stamina up to be able to.... BLOCK? I mean to do your job. Because if your block is not up and you take an actual hit from a boss, you're dead. Having enough resources for the fight to be able to do your job is the definition of sustain.

And I'm sorry, your "first veteran dungeon" (I'd love to know which one) probably didn't test your sustain at all.

Actually you know what? Why do you wear heavy armor at all? In easier content you can tank enemies with lower resistances anyway. I mean if you don't have sustain issues in the content you're playing, you won't have mitigation issues as well. Just wear a light armor and don't use shields. Just block with daggers. Because you can do that in easy content.

[737]

Just let it be guys. He'll learn with time. I only realized my nightblade tank wasn't as good as I thought when I made my DK tank. He's new to the game he has time to learn.

[Brownstone]

Oh and btw I hope you add me to prove me wrong.

[NESSKAT]

Just keep going - like all rogue characters it starts squishy and ends up killing multiple mobs faster than most classes. Can build for tankiness too. NB is a great class.

[Brownstone]

Cepheid Variable původně napsal:

Also, please don't cite Alcast... He's been proven to showcase false builds on his website that he doesn't even run, so that he can outperform other people and say they just haven't mastered the skillsets yet...
Also whenever he wipes in content because he didn't do a mechanic properly, he cries that the game is bugged/unbalanced and he's paying money to ♥♥♥♥♥♥ developers.

Yeah I agree. I'm also against 5-1-1 on tanks, I wear 7 heavy. Same hp, just 700 less stamina/magicka? But better sustain since the heavy armor passive that returns resources is stromger and also it's easier to reach resist cap without sacrificing from other parts of the build.

Even a Nord tank can't reach the resist cap without 7 heavy armors unless using Lord Warden. Which I don't like. I switched to Stonekeeper and enjoying the infinite sustain. I use Orzorga's Red Frothgar instead of 3-stat food because 1500+ magicka recovery is better than max stats. For a long fight, recovery is sustain, not max stats. Only dd/healer needs max stats. Tanks need recovery in my opinion. In my build I don't even have to use heavy attacks and hold block for a whole fight. In craglorn trials I don't even need pots.

[CovfefeCat]

Lol love how this dude with less than 200 hours and has never done a real dungeon or trial is still insisting that experienced players are objectively wrong.

When you tank Veteran Bloodroot Forge on Hardmode at less than 500CP points then I'll give NB tanks some merit, but they still don't compare in trials.

You're arguing against 5 years of testing in this game. Not once in those 5 years has NB tank every been viable, and I don't think I've ever seen a NB healer outside of Guild Run Trials either.

Until their class gets a slight buff, they will remain trash at anything other than DPS.

Your class is already possibly the best PvP class, and one of the best damage dealers in PvE both Stam and Magicka builds, why can't you just settle with that? I don't complain about my DK healer not being able to deal DPS, I understand that's not what we're meant for. Honestly we were never meant for healing, but I made it work after hundreds of hours of grinding skill points, maxing crafting, and slowly accumulating CP points. Even then we're only viable now because Zenimax made a huge amount of changes in Summerset and Murkmire that buffed healers. Maybe Elseweyr will buff NB gameplay for you, but I don't recall hearing of any of those changes from the private testers who visited the studio last month. It looks like Necromancer will be the new best tank in the game, and NB and Sorc are still left in the bottom tier.

Maybe it's because you were a Warrior in WoW, so you're used to having 2 DPS classes and a tank class that have been viable in everyone expansion since launch, AND been arguably the best PvP class, but would you make an argument for how Warriors make viable healers? Because honestly I could see you doing that. I can see you running Chi-Jis in Mist of Pandaria and spamming self-healing abilities and Leech so your overhealing will flow to injured allies, and wondering why Resto Druid has been the best Raid healer since the dawn of time.

[Qualily]

Cepheid Variable původně napsal:

Kenthen původně napsal:

Any Warden that would resort to copypasting Alcast builds would end up running Deep Thoughts. But then Warden would generally be offtanks in a 12 man that also brings a DK, far as I understand it. However, in either case, why would it work for the Warden and not the NB?

The issue is that I see a LOT of tanks run it, and the problem with it is you lower your defenses to do so. And off-tank might be able to handle it if he doesn't currently have aggro. The problem with the skill is you need to drop block to channel, and the passive damage reduction from Psjiic channeling is much lower than holding block (at least 20% lower if not a DK), and sometimes would require you to channel inside an AoE you need to be getting out of, but you can't because you don't have the stamina to dodge roll out until after you channel. I've had too many tanks use that ability in Vet Bloodroot Forge and die cuz they stood in the stupid. And if you constantly have to break the channel to re-position, it isn't very worth the skill slot is it? I think Wardens only get away with it because their passive regen stacks on the restore rate, so they spend less time channeling than other classes. Granted, Nightblades also have increased restore while wearing Heavy Armor, so maybe it would be viable? But again, it requires you do drop block, and Wardens get massive defensive bonuses just from having a frost ability slotted.

It's a great ability, just not when you have aggro on you.

Also, please don't cite Alcast... He's been proven to showcase false builds on his website that he doesn't even run, so that he can outperform other people and say they just haven't mastered the skillsets yet...
Also whenever he wipes in content because he didn't do a mechanic properly, he cries that the game is bugged/unbalanced and he's paying money to ♥♥♥♥♥♥ developers.

That's all fair enough and you're probably right. If dropping block would kill your mitigation by that much and the DR from the channel and whatever else you can muster can't sufficiently make up for it then its pretty much pants. And yeah, you would have to kill the channeling sooner rather than later for repositioning even if you can manage to find an opening to use it on occasion.

And I only bring up Alcast because I see people throwing around links to his site all the time, as soon as someone asks about builds. I honestly don't know enough about his shenanigans or the game at large, I'm just genuinely interested in learning.

[Brownstone]

Never tried taking a hit while channeling Deep Thoughts but mitigation is not the issue.. I mean maybe you can mitigate some hits but most boss attacks also knock you down and it's very risky to be knocked down for a tank.

[CovfefeCat]

Mr. Brownstone původně napsal:

Cepheid Variable původně napsal:

Also, please don't cite Alcast... He's been proven to showcase false builds on his website that he doesn't even run, so that he can outperform other people and say they just haven't mastered the skillsets yet...
Also whenever he wipes in content because he didn't do a mechanic properly, he cries that the game is bugged/unbalanced and he's paying money to ♥♥♥♥♥♥ developers.

Yeah I agree. I'm also against 5-1-1 on tanks, I wear 7 heavy. Same hp, just 700 less stamina/magicka? But better sustain since the heavy armor passive that returns resources is stromger and also it's easier to reach resist cap without sacrificing from other parts of the build.

Even a Nord tank can't reach the resist cap without 7 heavy armors unless using Lord Warden. Which I don't like. I switched to Stonekeeper and enjoying the infinite sustain. I use Orzorga's Red Frothgar instead of 3-stat food because 1500+ magicka recovery is better than max stats. For a long fight, recovery is sustain, not max stats. Only dd/healer needs max stats. Tanks need recovery in my opinion. In my build I don't even have to use heavy attacks and hold block for a whole fight. In craglorn trials I don't even need pots.

Agreed, tanks don't need 5-1-1. That being said my DK Healer is 5-2 Heavy armor then Light, and while I only have like 1.5k mana regen, I restore around 20% of my mana bar with my Heavy Attack (which i weave into my build regardless because of the major mending buff, and it also heals people for at least 2k if I crit). The 2 pieces Light armor are so I have just enough mana regen that I only need to heavy attack for Major mending buff and not actually for resources, so i can spend more time throwing out Orbs to tanks like this dude, who run out of stamina 30 seconds into a boss fight and keep getting one shot, leaving me to tank while I rez him.

Dude isn't even 300CP and thinks one Vet dungeon taught him everything he needs to know... He probably can't even clear a Normal Frostfang, let alone a Vet Frostfang. Even I haven't cleared it on hardmode because I'm yet to find a tank who doesn't get one shot all the time, because everyone thinks they can just stack HP and max resources on a tank and not have any resource sustain whatsoever. Also I'm sick of tanks who don't bring a Synergy ability... I have harmony on my necklace but never get to use it. Honestly if I EVER have mana problems it's because the group isn't giving me synergies, which even without Harmony they should because of the Undaunted Passives.

[JimPappa]

Mr. Brownstone původně napsal:

So you're no longer to be taken seriously after you said that sustain isn't an issue. I regret posting all those text... Hoped you have the ability to understand but...

Your explanation wasn't a waste. I'm leveling a DK tank and the things you said will be very helpful. I usually main a Templar tank (got close to 700hrs of tanking experience with it) but some veteran trials and vet DLC dungeons are very challenging for him. Base game vet dungeons are a joke in comparison.

And btw just ignore the troll. (if he's not trolling he's got some serious issues with reading and understanding information presented to him). Notice how he never named the dungeons he tanked? He will only learn once he tries vet DLC dungeons or vet trials with his NB tank.