Good news about modding

[Arno]

Most of this is already covered in other threads, but I wanted to collect it here as well as save the click to YouTube so we can all be talking about the same thing.

First off, here's a link to an interview by OverTake with Marco Massarutto (co-founder and executive manager at Kunos) from October 19, 2024, with the timestamp where they talk about modding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXvq23EYsvE&t=19m27s

(Shout-outs to BRT Cobra for dropping this video in another thread.)

Here's what Marco said (I've made some cosmetic edits to make the grammar flow better in English, but no changes to content...you can watch the video if you like):

[Marco] Modding is not a bad word!

[Marco] We also want to support mods in Evo. Like we did in the first Assetto Corsa, the modding will be available after we complete the Early Access program, not before; there will have to be patches. Our goal...it's not done yet, but our goal is actually to create a platform where the most talented modders can share their content.

[OverTake] A curated modding system?

[Marco] Yes, but cooperating directly with car manufacturers and track companies. We don't want to support the grabbing of content from other games -- because that's unfair -- but we want to give the right visibility to those modders that are quite talented. We want to provide a great selection of the best mods, so that people can enjoy them. Then the modders can get the visibility they deserve, and we can make everybody happy.

[OverTake] So, are we talking about tracks and cars, or only one...

[Marco] No, tracks and cars.

Hopefully this will make people happy about the future of AC Evo, when it comes to modding. A couple of thoughts on the above:

1. When he says "there will have to be patches", I'm pretty sure he's referring to the fact that they're going to be constantly patching the game during Early Access, and trying to support that kind of moving target for modding while they're still in their own development cycle isn't sustainable.
   
2. I will concede that he didn't say the specific words that I wanted to hear, but it could be just a lack of precision. When they talk about a "curated modding system", I hope that means that anybody can get content into the game as long as it's not a) a copyright violation, or b) just outright trash. Of course, "who decides where to draw the line on trash", but if they're committing to curation then I trust them to get that part right.
   
3. Also about mod curation: they're clearly looking to enable arbitrary people to create mods for the game. If that's true, then those modders have to be able to create, test, and generally use those mods while they're developing them, right? So ultimately, even if a particular mod never makes it into the game's official "modding system", I don't see why any random mod couldn't just be packaged up on the modder's own computer, uploaded to a central location, and then downloaded and installed the same way the modder themselves has it on their own system where they're making the mod in the first place.

Anyway, when I didn't see modding on the Early Access roadmap it made me pause, but after watching this interview I feel good about the direction they're going and I hope reading this makes the rest of y'all feel good as well.

[Sassanid]

Great news

[unsthuthn]

you don't see why any random mod couldn't just be packaged up on the modder's own computer? ever heard of drm? integrity checks? i sure wonder if the game being online only has anything to do with that
sharing files kind of modding is the first and main thing they'll do their best to break so everyone goes to their modding menu, which might not even be free

[Arran Chace]

From a other interview and sources i understood that if a Mod wasn't curated/validated you can still use it in any offline capacity, even if it was a blatant cheat mod. Only you weren't able to use the Mod online.

I could be wrong, but that what i got from several interviews on modding.

[Arno]

Originally posted by unsthuthn:

you don't see why any random mod couldn't just be packaged up on the modder's own computer? ever heard of drm? integrity checks?

Yes, I'm quite familiar with that stuff, so I'll be interested to see the details of your theory of why that would prevent community modding in the way I described.

Do you think that Kunos plans to issue code signing keys for every random dev who thinks they might want to make a mod?

What you said would make sense if the game didn't have community modding at all, but that's not the case here (unless you're saying Marco's answers in the interview are wrong).

If a random user can build a mod on their own computer without specifically coordinating with Kunos, then yes, there's no reason you couldn't just copy the files over because the other user could just as easily have also created the same mod on their own.

[Arno]

Originally posted by Arran Chace:

From a other interview and sources i understood that if a Mod wasn't curated/validated you can still use it in any offline capacity, even if it was a blatant cheat mod. Only you weren't able to use the Mod online.

That makes sense to me. Although, what I'd rather see is a server-side option where you can configure something like what Quake calls a "pure server" that doesn't allow mods, but you can also have a private server without that setting where you can go full Initial D with your friends and other like-minded tofu delivery drivers.

An even better option would be if the definition of "pure server" was "you have to be running the same mods as the server itself". So, the server could run without any mods at all, or you could have whatever set of mods you and your friends/community like to use while still preventing cheat mods. I mean, unless the server is also using the cheat mod. :)

You could even pair that with a system where a creator with a high-quality mod could contact Kunos and actually get a code signing key, and then mods signed with one of those keys might be allowed in online play (since the idea is that Kunos isn't going to issue keys to people who aren't trusted not to make illegal/cheat mods). That could be the "visibility" that Marco was talking about in the interview.

[unsthuthn]

>Do you think that Kunos plans to issue code signing keys for every random dev who thinks they might want to make a mod?
they don't have to play nice, they can do anything they want, the users are already invested from the previous games and will just suck it up. especially if its sprinkled with some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about quality, legality or security

also if unsigned mods work in singleplayer but don't in multiplayer that's pretty much useless for a good chunk of players

[Miles]

Good so wont be any janky mods being pumped out.

[unsthuthn]

great excuse to loose your freedoms under

[sebo]

Originally posted by Miles:

Good so wont be any janky mods being pumped out.

exactly. not to mention mods that might create things that can cause exploits in multiplayer. hope they are real strict in what is allowed.

[Arno]

Originally posted by unsthuthn:

they don't have to play nice, they can do anything they want, the users are already invested from the previous games and will just suck it up. especially if its sprinkled with some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about quality, legality or security

It's not a question of "playing nice"; if I can build a mod on my computer, and play with that mod, then someone else could conceivably also build that same mod on their own computer and play with it. That's no different than me creating it once and just copying it over to someone else's computer.

That's why I'm talking about code signing keys (or something similar). The only way Kunos could prevent me from running my personal mod on my own computer would be if the game refused to load any mod unless it were signed by a trusted key. This doesn't seem to be in line with the sentiment Marco gave in the interview, where anybody could mod the game.

Originally posted by unsthuthn:

also if unsigned mods work in singleplayer but don't in multiplayer that's pretty much useless for a good chunk of players

That's true...multiplayer could be handled differently. Personally, the only reason I would play multiplayer would be to compete, and that seems like a situation where you'd want a "pure" server not running any mods at all so that people can't cheat. But I guess there's other use cases, like a server running a drift track mod where cheating's not really an issue since everybody's just there to have fun and not compete anyway.

For those people, I hope they implement something like what I described above, where the individual server admins can decide what sorts of mods they want.

The unfortunate cloud that hangs over all of this, though, is this: whether any of us like it or not, as long as we want licensed content in the game, Kunos is beholden to the holders of those licenses. They have to do their due diligence to try and keep people from violating copyright with mods or those licensed cars/tracks are gonna start disappearing. I don't like it any more than anybody else, but it's just the reality of IP licensing.

That said, it's also true that Kunos knows where its bread is buttered (especially after seeing what the modding scene did, and continues to do, for the first AC) so it only makes good business sense for them to support modding as much as they can, within the restrictions imposed by the license holders.