I tested the MOST important FFB aspect on a Moza R9 and it's not great

[cmbaileytstc]

I made sure to remove any damping etc to give the signal a fair chance to speak clearly. Then I experimented with variations on acceleration, sudden lift off, and trail braking while turning. The idea is to test the increases/decreases in steering torque fed to the wheel when weight shifts forward/aft. A feel for the extent of this weight shift is probably the most important single thing your FFB wheel can tell you in a vehicle sim, because you're not actually sitting in a car and cant feel the G forces. And because 99% of players will never have a motion rig.

And the verdict is: It is there, but barely detectable. Moreover, seems a heartbeat late, which is to say the car physics begin responding to the weight shift slightly but perceptibly before the FFB changes.

This is in fact way better than the nothing you get from many games when it comes to fore/aft weight shift and FFB signalling, but simply inferior to the standard set by original AC. With original AC the signal, IOW the change in wheel torque, is clear enough to be felt on the entry level cheap wheels most people will start with, which is absolutely a good thing.

It doesn't matter how "rubbery", or "detailed", how "authentic" a ripple strip etc feels, or how much you imagine it "feels just like the real car" with a given FFB system. All that is just quality of life, nice but not the primary mission of FFB.

The most important part of FFB is clear signaling of vital information you can't otherwise feel because you're not actually in a car. The once-and-future king AC1 is among the gold standard titles in this regard. The clarity of FFB "language" the original AC boasts is about 90% of the reason multitudes of people are still bothering to play, mod, and work their butts off to improve an abandoned game from ten years ago, despite many imperfections in its default state.

[Miles]

On my R5 any amount of damping added makes the car feel numb and feels awful to drive with.
Spoke to a few people that use damping and told them to turn it off and then they realised what the issue was with the "terrible" FFB.

[eliteangler]

My CSL DD provides great weight shift feedback... and also other feedback.

[Yootz]

I am on R5 trying to find the new best settings now.. I had to turn down the max output to 50% and add damping and tire friction for it to feel good

[vprtr]

still no FFB for most wheels at the moment the game is pointless and if they dont fix it this new game will die not long after it fully comes out and we all go back to ac

[Raffi]

I play it with a Fanatec DD1 and have all the feedback I need to control the car.

[Fabrizio_T]

My take: If I may make an introductory digression, the effects of load transfers are certainly modeled much better in EVO than in Assetto Corsa. However, I fear that—at least with certain cars—EVO has now gone a bit over the top - it seems to have been overdone.

I am referring in particular to the Mazda MX-5 Cup, which is a track-prepared slick-equipped car but still derived from a road car, with performance and limits in proportion. Not to mention an engine with less than 200 hp.

Now, the MX-5 is certainly a lively car in terms of dynamic behavior (I know because I drive one), but it remains progressive and predictable in its reactions, always providing ample warning before reaching its limits.

The version modeled in EVO, however, feels more like a formula car—it is driven almost entirely with throttle and brake and is extremely tail-happy. I find this excessive, unrealistic, and quite different from the much more composed behavior of the same car in Assetto Corsa, which I believe is somewhat closer to reality.

That brings me to the critical issue of force feedback.

As others have rightly pointed out, in EVO load transfers to the front axle are generally well conveyed through force feedback (with the exception of the ABS effect). Braking and turn-in phases are decently communicative, and even near one's limit, it is possible to control corner entry (at least from a neutral phase) with reasonable precision.

The problems arise in the mid-corner and exit phases—when transitioning back to neutral state before a rearward load transfer due to acceleration. Throughout this entire phase, force feedback fails to provide convincing signals about available grip and G-force, or at best, it does so weakly and with a noticeable delay.

For this reason, even with low-power cars like the MX-5, it is surprisingly easy to induce a snap oversteer, which quickly becomes unmanageable due to the lack of clear feedback and the excessive modeling of load transfer effects.

[PAWNSTAR]

Originally posted by Raffi:

I play it with a Fanatec DD1 and have all the feedback I need to control the car.

Exactly You have ENOUGH information that you need to control the car.
through just steering and a little bit of rumble strips... and when you go off into the grass Moreso on the remastered ACC race cars than the road cars

HOWEVER with out Tyre behaviour & Suspension Data going to feedback
Your basically Driving this and feeling this

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2015-07/28/5/campaign_images/webdr15/bear-grylls-im-flying-2-2502-1438074240-5_dblwide.jpg

which is equivalent to this
https://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/forza-motorsport-2023/6/6d/Forza_Motorsport_Skip_Practice_Promo_1.png

and we all know of the outcome of those 2 things were

Dont get me wrong steering is fantastic and its very good Starting point
it just needs a couple more essentials added like every other sim racing game

hopefully it gets added before they add the famous track and free roam,
because you dont want to sail the titanic through nordschleife (The FFB Test Track)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To the Entry Level steering wheel Users saying FFB is Perfect
Please Factor in The DEVS of Forza motorsports listened to entry level Steering wheel users & control pad users for Feedback about FFB Physics and handling who cant Feel FFB above 2Nm and vibration motors in a gamepad

So if you can only feel this @ 2 Nm

https://toysrus.com.au/cdn/shop/files/37ff9204111ded4a78e701bf9cf409938adb37ae9269991ee3588eec5e53b35c.jpg?v=1739191320&width=2000

what made you think you can feel this @ 12 - 32nm

https://www.lemansentertainment.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/2024-05-31-GSH-Photography-0086-Final-1280.webp

https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/ricky-taylor-usa-helio-castroneves-usa-alexander-rossi-usa-news-photo-1578578985.jpg

when you wheel has limited you to 2nm
https://toysrus.com.au/cdn/shop/files/37ff9204111ded4a78e701bf9cf409938adb37ae9269991ee3588eec5e53b35c.jpg?v=1739191320&width=2000

These Threads aint attack on you, Its bringing the core aspect To the DEVS attention which is there translation over to Steering wheels and whats missing

By saying its perfect would result in another Forza Motorsports disaster

and NO its NOT EARLY ACCESS, Its Feeback on Force Feed Back R#$ar#
to those who play that card

The DEVS : Whats seems to be the problem?
The Re#$@s : Its early access
The DEVS : "No $##t lol, so whats the problem?"

To be the best simulator they gotta get feedback about how to make it better
and for racing games How it translates over from game to FFB on wheels is crucial
Just as crucial as Fast FPS & Stability, Optimizations & Connecting to their servers

[Raffi]

I have adapted the FFB based on my real-life experiences in the steering wheel menu and in the game and now receive all the information I need.
It's not about steering, it's about feeling! I feel the grip, understeer, oversteer and if something is lost, my Next Level Motion Platform V3 shows me and it is also still in the beta profile for AC EVO.

[PAWNSTAR]

yes so does my DBox Gen5 rig.... but we are just talking FFB of wheel alone and dont need a fancy 5k 20k motion rig to play this game .

Most people will only play on a wheelbase and pedals and i believe thats what the topic is about

[Raffi]

That's exactly what it's about, the FFB communicates what it's supposed to via the steering wheel, or at least that's what it does for me.

[PAWNSTAR]

so you can feel the car losing traction on a FANATEC DD1..
via its rear wheels lighting it up?
induced by your throttle control
not by steering

or undualtions in the road and dips in geometry of the track
Without the Platform lol , cause thats cheating
eg standing start do a burnout on the grid.... can you feel it?

When your drifting in EVO ... what are you feeling
when you want to exit out of an apex from a trail brake what exactly are you feeling

This game limited atm steering arm, grass and kerb (Basics)
no springs no tires no road data
kinda like your connected to your steering wheel column and not the Track
like a hover board or a boat

[Raffi]

Admittedly, I don't feel the standing start, but otherwise I feel Laguna Seca like never before. Not the corkscrew curve, that's special anyway, but I can feel all the others now, I had to know them before!

[PAWNSTAR]

lol some kerbs aint kerbs and are painted on so they wont rumble
But you should feel grass and sand when you go off track around the 6nm mark

as for oversteer and understeer that would be your steering arm with weight shift for turning but NOT traction loss and scrubbing of your tires relative to the road or when you Plant your throttle and bag it up out of the apex you should feel traction biting between wheel and track or traction loss when wheelslips starts to happen

unfortunately we only feel steering arm and thats about it
so when someones says FFB is not lively , Flat or is a bit sad..... Its because of this and the feeling of being disconnected from the track

They come from games with better FFB Experiences

[Legendary Squash]

Originally posted by cmbaileytstc:

I made sure to remove any damping etc to give the signal a fair chance to speak clearly. Then I experimented with variations on acceleration, sudden lift off, and trail braking while turning. The idea is to test the increases/decreases in steering torque fed to the wheel when weight shifts forward/aft. A feel for the extent of this weight shift is probably the most important single thing your FFB wheel can tell you in a vehicle sim, because you're not actually sitting in a car and cant feel the G forces. And because 99% of players will never have a motion rig.

And the verdict is: It is there, but barely detectable. Moreover, seems a heartbeat late, which is to say the car physics begin responding to the weight shift slightly but perceptibly before the FFB changes.

This is in fact way better than the nothing you get from many games when it comes to fore/aft weight shift and FFB signalling, but simply inferior to the standard set by original AC. With original AC the signal, IOW the change in wheel torque, is clear enough to be felt on the entry level cheap wheels most people will start with, which is absolutely a good thing.

It doesn't matter how "rubbery", or "detailed", how "authentic" a ripple strip etc feels, or how much you imagine it "feels just like the real car" with a given FFB system. All that is just quality of life, nice but not the primary mission of FFB.

The most important part of FFB is clear signaling of vital information you can't otherwise feel because you're not actually in a car. The once-and-future king AC1 is among the gold standard titles in this regard. The clarity of FFB "language" the original AC boasts is about 90% of the reason multitudes of people are still bothering to play, mod, and work their butts off to improve an abandoned game from ten years ago, despite many imperfections in its default state.

really good post man! i only can come with the "tires not finished, FFB being perfected, power will be jacked up once they get that set in stone then i cn imagine the detail we get will be great. and thats coming from a g29 user who in EVO, is only experiencing half of the force AC1 puts out. and im hoping they turn it up eventually.

[Michael]

Originally posted by cmbaileytstc:

simply inferior to the standard set by original AC. With original AC the signal, IOW the change in wheel torque, is clear enough to be felt on the entry level cheap wheels most people will start with, which is absolutely a good thing.

It's the same ffb that's in AC1