Help me if you want The Long Dark to be more realistic!

[n00bas]

TL;DR(too long;didn't read): if you want The Long Dark to be more realistic we will need a separate realistic mode (or mod support). Please fill out this Google form so we can vote for one together:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1T058uSXE9XshTuIxliNYUEmnagn6K1CzSW66-u_hYR4/viewform?usp=send_form

Thank you for the ones who already filled it out! There are already 68 responses/entries (excluding mine) =).

Note: at the bottom of my post you will find the information regarding my previous thread for this subject and some general stuff.

Hinterland has their own vision regarding The Long Dark. One of it is that they do not aim the game to be entirely realistic, but are primarily focused on game-play. This is a quote from the creative director from Hinterland (Raphael van Lierop):

We're more interested in making the game compelling, than we are in making it realistic. When the two are compatible, we embrace both.

Some of us are looking for that one true realistic survival experience/simulator. The Long Dark is the closest we will get and might even be for a (long) time. This means that we buy The Long Dark, even if we know that it is not meant to be as realistic as possible. A lot of people who want this go to the forum to request realistic implementations. Some even get frustrated that their ideas are not in line with the vision of Hinterland. This has resulted in negative reviews as well and even has caused The Long Dark to go from overwhelmingly positive to very positive (please review TLD yourself if you haven't already).

This thread and my Google form (see link at top and below) are meant to provide a solution for this problem. It is to show that there are many people that want The Long Dark to be more realistic and that we do not need that much to be satisfied. Don't get me wrong, I really like The Long Dark and I wouldn't want them to change a single bit about their general vision and game-play. However, I feel like Hinterland can address the issue quite easily to make it more enjoyable for everyone, even for the people who do not want a realistic mode. Solving the issue will avoid the negative reviews and complaints about realism which means it will create a better place for everyone. This means you can be against a realism mode, yet support my idea for one. This sounds controversial, but it is not.

My idea is twofold. One is to eventually allow mod support. This will fix most (if not all) issues regarding realism. Hinterland has stated that they are 'open to it' and if it will be implemented it will be on release (or some time after that). Until it has been confirmed I will also vow for my other idea, which is as follows.

Hinterland could create a separate game mode (like Stalker, Pilrgrim etc.) that is called realistic mode (or whatever). This is not in line with their vision, but they can explicitly state this in the description. People against the realism mode do not want resources wasted to create one, which is why this realistic mode will only have elements of realism that are created by changing parameters in the code. Stuff like time for an item to be degraded or respawn times. This shouldn't be too difficult to create, yet it will show the intention to the realism mode group that they are being heard.

Eventually, when mod support will be created (if it will be), we ourselves can add all the game changing mechanics. If mod support will not be added, Hinterland could choose to spend the resources on creating one themselves which they have received because they added the realism mode group to their fan-base. With the Google form I am trying to show that this fan-base is larger than they might have expected. That is why you should fill out the form =):
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1T058uSXE9XshTuIxliNYUEmnagn6K1CzSW66-u_hYR4/viewform?usp=send_form

If you can, please spread this information to your friends/relatives who would (or would not) want a realistic mode as well. This way there is a bigger chance that something will be done about it. I want to thank the people who already filled it out and even contacted their friends to support the idea. You can express all your ideas in the Google form (really any idea), I will create a summary when the time is right and I feel like there are enough people who filled it out.

I want this particular thread to be focused on ideas to make the game more realistic, without game changing mechanics to be implemented. It needs to be easy to implement by Hinterland, otherwise you will have to wait for mod support. I will comment on my own thread with my first ideas, I would love it if you try to add more. Please don't only make the game easier, but think of a balanced implementation. This means providing the positive side, but also the negative side to it. If there only is a positive/negative side feel free to mention it, but I will try to think of something to balance it out.

There is more information on this subject in my Google form:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1T058uSXE9XshTuIxliNYUEmnagn6K1CzSW66-u_hYR4/viewform?usp=send_form

If you want more information regarding my realism thoughts, feel free to check out my locked thread (warning, there is a lot of text):
http://steamcommunity.com/app/305620/discussions/0/517141624280890747/

Also, check out my personal review. Feel free to vote it up or down, but it is there to 'warn' the realism mode people that Hinterland currently does not aim for a realistic mode:
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197961788550/recommended/


Thank you!

Kind regards,
n00bas

About my last thread:
My previous thread on this got deleted because of my example. I want to apologise for my reference to the (Syrian) refugees. Like I said, I couldn't think of a better example, but I should have known better. I only read everything until my last post that asked to post ideas regarding a realism mode. If you commented after that, feel free to comment again. I actually liked the fact that it has been deleted, my last post was not clear at all. Luckily I always make backups of posts =).

To Bethany:
Thank you for your message. There is a huge time difference between me and you because I live in The Netherlands. I had to sleep some time =D. I was kinda scared for a moment that I would be banned forever, but I was glad to find out it was purely to send me a message. That is why I created a Steam rant below :P. I should have known that political references are out of the question, even though I used it as a hypothetical situation (I wasn't actually commenting on the political crisis).

[Steam rant]
So yeah, if your post gets deleted there is no way to retrieve it. It would be nice to have an option: 'go to your archived, deleted post here'. There are more things about Steam that I really hate, even though the platform is amazing. Like, Bethany could not send me a personal message as a moderator but had to ban me for a second so she could clarify why my thread was deleted. Like really? I have to get a heart attack to receive a message from a moderator? Also, you can't post a long review at first. You first have to post a small part and then edit it later. Like really? I thought I was an idiot for not understanding why it would not be posted... Also, when posting comments on reviews you do not see your character count. It is limited to 1000, so you have to guess when you are at that limit. Basic stuff Steam, basic stuff.
[/steam]

[n00bas]

Below my ideas there is a note for Hinterland.

So a few of my personal ideas (I will not spoil it all) are:

1) Longer re-spawn times. I have never seen animals multiply themselves as fast as in The Long Dark. This also prevents people to stick to their base (mine is in the Pleasant Valley Farmstead). Ideally you would want to have to travel across all maps before you can return to your home base for more food.

2) Slower item deterioration. Like I mention in my Google form, I have never seen a pry-bar deteriorate that fast. It has been done for balance reasons, which is why there need to be more negative drawbacks to a realism mode to keep it interesting. Hinterland doesn't have to look up all real world item expiring/deteriorating times if it costs too many resources, the easy solution is to just multiply the current time with x.

3) Chance of a wolf to attack you when you are next to a fire. I don't believe that 100% of the animals will not attack you just because you are next to a fire. At least 1 in 20 wolves should attack you. I do not know how hard is it to implement, but you might have to allow the wolves to run directly through the fire if it will be implemented. It depends on how the code is produced. I have programmed a tiny bit myself (I am doing my Master Information Science), but am no expert.


A note for Hinterland, please don't be offended =).

I know that this realistic mode is not within your vision, but let me clarify it with a (legit) example (I have learned my lesson).

Let us assume that you guys work in a building with a garden. Even though it is cold, you guys go outside to talk, have lunch etc. You people love animals and do not wish to harm them a single bit, not even that scary spider in the bathroom.

You have found out that there is an enormous wasp nest in your precious garden. Some wasps have attacked people and are harming the organisation. Yet, you have stated that you do not wish to harm the animals. You have told the wasps several times that your garden is not a place for wasps and politely asked them not to attack you. Yet, they keep on attacking and they are increasing in numbers. One (or more) employee(s) even got attacked so bad that he (they) got ill.

What can you do about it? You could exterminate them all, but these wasps are special. They communicate with eachother and other wasps will come to your garden even if you do. Some of the current wasps in your garden will even haunt you. It is not an option because you do not wish to harm the 'poor wasps'.

There is however, another solution. This would harm and kill some of the wasps, but most will live happily ever after. It will require some work, but not that much. You could transfer the wasp nest to your nearest forest. A forest where they will not harm anyone and where they can live happily ever after. Later on you could create the tools for the (new) wasps to create their own precious garden, but that is not an option quite yet. If you would help the wasps they would be really greatful and these special wasps would tell everyone about your work. They are so special they would start producing cash and hand it over to you.

Right now you are not doing anything about the wasps. You let them attack your employees and they hinder you in their work. Even visitors get attacked, which is bad for business. The solution looks quite simple, to move them, but some of your employees stated that they feel sorry for the few poor wasps who would get hurt or die because the transportation might be stressful. It is not in the line of your vision.

Note that not all the wasps are harmful. A lot of them like your garden and live there in peace. They already started producing cash, but they can not call for more peaceful wasps because the garden is not entirely what they are aiming for.

I might have to clarify it, but it might be clear on its own.

[Skywatcher]

More realism would kill the game-play. It's a game not a real life simulation. Just my opinion.

[NorX]

Haven't you posted this before?

[n00bas]

Originally posted by matej:

Haven't you posted this before?

I forgot to say that it got deleted because of violation of the forum rules (my example was bad). I added this to my post, thanks for your input.

[n00bas]

Originally posted by Skywatcher:

More realism would kill the game-play. It's a game not a real life simulation. Just my opinion.

I understand that a lot (most) people want the game Hinterland is creating. Games are about game-play. There is however a quite large group that would want this realistic survival game. I am not telling Hinterland to change their vision, just to add this group to their fan-base.

[cfett199]

This is irrelevent, seeing as how if you are just disseminating this via the steam and hinterland forums, you are reaching no more than 1% of TLD players.

All of these aspects have been the way they are for months, becaus the devs have the balance that they want down to a tee. A poll from 1% of the community is going to do little to change that. As has been noted, the goal is to tell a story. Once that story is out, I doubt many will care for such 'realistic' aspects that one focuses on needlessly seeing as how one can still live a very long time under their constraints.

[jonassah]

Realistic game, this is really a big point. I think what many players now want is challenge and a little bit realism like sleeping on the ground, sitting down, changing the wolves behaviour or adding some new wildlife ,make wildlife not respawn all the time in the same place to bring you to travel miles to find food and some other points. But changing the game into 100% realistic one that will never happen due to the game mechanics and story.I would say with CHALLENGE will you reach very large Community than this.

[Hakke]

frozen exploded soda cans... right ! i might need to get off the computer for a while...

[cfett199]

From my "What it would take to make TLD 'realistic'" post

Originally posted by cfett199:

TLD is an "exploraiton-survival" game as attested to on the game's store page. As the story comes out, we can expect that the focus will shift from pure survival, which is the main acotr in the sandbox, to a tandem experience where the player not only explores the land, but also the morality of a post apocalyptic community.

I've deconstructed the current game with my post Core Tenets of TLD; A Systems Approach. This is ultimately a game, and certain real life facotrs have to be omitted, and others toned down, in order to keep this game accessible.

From my expertise as a servicemember (hiking, physical fitness, nutrition, rifle marksmanship and maintenance), the following are facotrs that would have to be implemented or adjusted in order to make this game oh so touted 'realistic'. These would serve to make the game increasing dull as well and punishingly difficult.

Packs
-Volumetic limitations
-Organization (one would have to unpack almost everything to get to what is at the bottom of the pack) Only some items will be immediately accessible, pack wisely
-Weight distribution
-Maintaining proper adjustment and fit

Physique
-Limiting time spent rucking or load carried, or gradually lose strength as the body's breakdown outpaces recovery
-Repetative injuries; shin splints, sprains, strains, stress fractures, blisters
-Longer wound recovery time; changing bandages, reduced performance until full recovery, which can be prolonged if one stubbornly pushes on (even with the use of painkillers'; treating the symptom not the cause)
-Footing; slipping on ice/snow/rocks
-Major injuries; broken bones, pulled muscles
-Death blows; punctured/lacerated arteries
-Sprinting is TOO FAST

Nutrition
-Realistic calorie burn; at least 4000cal per reasonable TLD day; balanced by realistic food avaliability from a given aniaml carcass with true caloric values. Conversely, animals would also be more elusive.
-Must eat in excess of the day's requirement in order to maintain given strength; fall short and gradually become emaciated and therefore weaker.
-Dietary deficiencies

Clothing
-Possibility of heat stroke if wearing too many layers when rucking a notable load
-Sweating dampens layers and makes them less effective
-Must be changed regularly to maintain condition via washing (microbial degredation) and reduce blisters (socks). Wearing dirty clothing may lead to rashes
-Potential for paradoxical undressing duriing late stage hypothermia

Rifle marksmanship/maintenance
-Significantly more shaking and sway
-Movement while breathing; firing at the natural respitory pause
-Cleaning to gradually recover some condition, though bore wear cannot be mitigated, ultimately rendering a given weapon useless. Swapping some components such as firing pins if a rifle suffers from several failures to fire in an attempt to fix it

Doesn't seem like fun now does it.

Feel free to add other 'realistic suggestions', but note that just what I've shown makes the game very unfun. The games system and balance is pretty much dialed to a tee, there's really no need to change the balance or add new aspects

DISCLAIMER; None of these things I've noted are serious suggestions, they are to illustrate a point.

Related Core Tenets. Serve to show why just tweaking current factors to be 'more realistic' will more than likely radically upset the balance of the game.

Originally posted by cfett199:

I would like to offer a systems based analysis to the whole of The Long Dark in order to better illustrate the key interplays present in the game, and how errant suggestions may serve to compromise a balanced experience. The Long Dark has two core tenets supported by several pillars. Feel free to suggest others if one feels I missed something.

Risk Management
-Wildlife Threat
-Weather Threat
-Terrain Threat
-Player Threat (Needs)

Inventory Management
-Item Degradation
-Item Availability
-Item Weight
-Weight Limits

One can easily see how all these pillars interact with each other, both within their tenets as well as with the adjacent tenet. An example is how carrying many items (Item weight) affects the weight limits via the player threat (increased fatigue), but also magnifies the terrain threat (uneven terrain makes spraining more likely) weather threat (more time outside while in transit) and potentially the wildlife threat (if carrying meat, or if taking a shortcut through wolf territory to mitigate the other threats). Breaking down the game into its key components allows the player to play more consciously, efficiently, and ultimately, ‘live’ longer. Furthermore, recognizing these interplays shows that any change to even a single pillar holds far reaching effects, and why suggestions should not be assessed only within the scope of their pillar, but on the entire system as a whole.

Take the most common gripe; wolves. If wolves were pacified as they were in pilgrim across all levels, typically under the guise of what I like to call selective realism (defined below), a systems analysis shows how this would unravel in Voyager and Stalker. With passive wildlife, certain items become all but obsolete; flares, torches, bandages, and antiseptic will rarely if ever be used. With no need to carry these items, inventory management is eased via the item weight and connected weight limits pillars. Conversely, item availability is boosted since one can just scare wolves away from their quarry, boosting food availability with no exchange (rifle round, arrow condition, first aid) as well as cloth from minimal use of bandages.

This approach also serves as evidence for why customizable difficulty settings are less than ideal, they can completely break the balance afforded under the three current difficulty settings, where all pillars become increasingly challenging at about the same rate. Picking and choosing which factors to adapt carry a cascading effect, potentially making survival more difficult, but much more likely making survival increasingly easy. Some may complain that the game seems like a chore, but tailoring a difficulty to one’s liking in order to increase their odds makes for a game nearly free of challenge, thus increasingly boring to play since one is basically waiting for death, as opposed to facing it down at every corner.

While not completely relevant to systems analysis, custom difficulty is also counterintuitive to survival; one does not pick the parameters of the situation in which they are thrust to survive in, they adapt to their circumstances or die by failing to adapt.

Selective realism; A phenomenon among fickle players, who when wanting for an aspect of a game to be changed that would make it easier (e.g. pacified wolves or decay rates) cite realism as the reason. Conversely, these individuals will dismiss realistic suggestions that would make the game more difficult, citing that it’s a game, and not a simulator.

[jonassah]

What i really don´t like in the game is (not sleeping on the ground) i can´t really understand that. That happens to me some times when i find a shelter,in a barn or in the Hydro dam, totally exhausted, i make fire but i cant sleep because i dont have a bedroll or there is no bed. Im sorry for that i play the game since one year and something like that must be updated since months ago. The devs make really very nice job but some points belong to the start of the game and not to the future.

[n00bas]

Originally posted by cfett199:

This is irrelevent, seeing as how if you are just disseminating this via the steam and hinterland forums, you are reaching no more than 1% of TLD players.

All of these aspects have been the way they are for months, becaus the devs have the balance that they want down to a tee. A poll from 1% of the community is going to do little to change that. As has been noted, the goal is to tell a story. Once that story is out, I doubt many will care for such 'realistic' aspects that one focuses on needlessly seeing as how one can still live a very long time under their constraints.

Cfett199, as always I really value your input. You are almost always right, but not this time.

The key word is generalisation. If you look at the medical industry, they are used to pick samples. Samples that are way, way WAY smaller than 1% of the people. However, under the right circumstances, one can generalise for the whole population. That is the power of randomness and generalisation.
Yes, you are right if you say that the Steam Forum does not represent your average TLD user. A lot of people don't care a single bit about the forum and a lot of times the people who do have certain specific traits. A lot of people here play on Stalker, some are very dedicated players. However, this doesn't mean that I cannot get valuable information about a poll with such 'low' numbers. I probably have missed some vital questions for this, but I am trying to make it representable for everyone (that is why multiple ways of spreading is important). That is also why I ask in the form on what game mode people play. If this is not varied then my form is quite useless, but not totally useless. Right now I have got 4 Stalker, 3 Pilgrim and 20 Voyageur (I added the question a bit later). That is an excellent representation of the players, so I am glad to state that you are wrong :P.

Regarding your post about the realism aspects, thanks for that I couldn't find it =). You state this:

Doesn't seem like fun now does it.

Might not sound fun to you, but for me it does totally sound like fun. Almost all the elements, including tedious tasks like pack management (what to put on top) sound like fun to me. I want it all and hopefully others as well. There is a good reason why I started to learn modding with Skyrim, these elements are very hard to implement but I want to try it any-ways.

[n00bas]

Originally posted by jonassah:

Realistic game, this is really a big point. I think what many players now want is challenge and a little bit realism like sleeping on the ground, sitting down, changing the wolves behaviour or adding some new wildlife ,make wildlife not respawn all the time in the same place to bring you to travel miles to find food and some other points. But changing the game into 100% realistic one that will never happen due to the game mechanics and story.I would say with CHALLENGE will you reach very large Community than this.

Lol, I can do this again xD. Yes, you are right. Creating a 100% realistic game would be impossible, I understand that. Unless... Unless, we live in a computer simulation ourselves! http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html

Okay, sorry about that. The fact is that I don't need it to be 100% realistic. I just don't want the artificial elements that focusses on game-play, but make it unrealistic. That is all. Everything added, like the list from Cfett199, are very welcome.

Like I said to Cfett, I don't need the reach the whole community, just a representable part of the players.

[n00bas]

Originally posted by Hakke:

frozen exploded soda cans... right ! i might need to get off the computer for a while...

Haha, you really read the other post xD? I know that dude over reacted a lot (and I don't agree with giving it a negative review because of that a single it), I just wanted to show that people complain about the lack of realism. Unnecessarily complain, like I try to explain.

[n00bas]

Originally posted by jonassah:

What i really don´t like in the game is (not sleeping on the ground) i can´t really understand that. That happens to me some times when i find a shelter,in a barn or in the Hydro dam, totally exhausted, i make fire but i cant sleep because i dont have a bedroll or there is no bed. Im sorry for that i play the game since one year and something like that must be updated since months ago. The devs make really very nice job but some points belong to the start of the game and not to the future.

I agree, dying out of exhaustion because you don't have a bedroll with you is very unrealistic. Just give it a big cold penalty to sleep on the floor or sit on the couch and I am fine with that. Thanks for the suggestion ;).

[n00bas]

I just wanted to thank you guys for filling out the form and responding to my thread. Special thanks to the Russians from oper.ru, I do not know why so many come from there but it sure is nice :D. There is really valuable information already, much more valuable than I could have hoped.