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Although I don't know if these discussions have been going on for long time now... I've just joined these discussions after the DLC bomb.
Just as a side note: when I say "we" I mean "we as interloper players". Which is kinda funny to me that I keep interloper players separate from other difficulty players. It probably adds to the problem I've read earlier that some people think interloper players as "special" from others. I apologize for that. But there's point to it since interlopers seem quite united and enthusiastic about their cause and "we" indeed lack quite a lot of content. Some of it is fine, others are not.
If the OP doesn't mind me piggybacking and expanding on this subject, I'll post here instead of us all having to compete thread space in two different topics that'd mostly be arguing the same debates anyhow. Otherwise, someone can make this its own thread too. At issue is not just how Interloper plays, but how that relates to how the rest of the games mechanic are played out in the other experience modes, in essence the essence of the game.
For a while I've been keeping track of the games titled updates just to be in awe of how many there have been since I joined back in Nov of 2016, and I thought recently it'd be good to remind everyone of this as well, whether it just a trip down memory lane, or, as I'd like to discuss, how much the game has changed since then, and what it means for its various levels of "experience". I went through the old News section for announcements of the major updates to recall what was added when, and we can debate/reflect on how this has changed the gameplay over the years. Hinterland also has a nice youtube page to see all the update videos explaining in more depth here what had been added or changed.
Specifically I'd like to discuss how these changes have impacted the design of Interloper over the years, whether its become too easy (according to some) from its initial design, and whether that design should be changed to better streamline a common narrative between the game modes in how they are played, while at the same time still retaining a challenge without having to outright lack or not include certain items or parts of gameplay.
A lot of these changes to the game have affected all the game modes of course, but for some they do naturally seem to affect Interloper more than others. Stoning a rabbit for example may not be as important in early game for the lower game modes as it is for an Interloper, but at the same time it made the game potentially easier than before the update.
When Interloper was first introduced, there were only 5 major regions and one forge at the end of the world map in DP. The limited regions and single forge at the time meant that for Interloper gameplay, that since you spawned into the world one would have to look in predetermined places for guarenteed loot spawns and make their way soon as possible to the forge to craft their tools. This made the gameplay of Interloper highly linear in terms of progression compared to choices available to players of the other experience modes.
So since Interloper was first added, there are now 12 regions (13 currently with the DLC). Arguably there is more loot/places to loot, to discover in the world now. There are also 3-4 forges, and 2 gunsmithing workshops placed at opposite ends of the world, relatively.
Each region added, theoretically can lengthen the time the player can survive by finding more stuff. The player is typically encouraged to move when supplies are too scarce to search out for more, and weigh and overcome the risk associated of venturing out into the harsh environment and wildlife. On Interloper mode and BRA low this means the player is constantly traveling to find more gear that is rarer and harder to find, excepting what isn't already outright unavailable.
Not only that, but the variety of things to find has also expanded, such that the game has encouraged being able to carry around more weight via bonuses such as the moose satchel, technical pack and the well fed buff, at the expense of eating more and avoiding starvation tactics.
With the addition of the Milling machine, long term survival increased with being able to repair tools and weapons that previously only limited whetstones and kits would restore condition; prior to, eventually one would wear and run out of tools, and then need to rely on a forge to craft improvised sets. Interlopers literally skip all this by needing to forge straight away, but can also repair their crafted tools now pretty much indefinitely.
Other "late game" regions have added in reward items as reward for taking the challenge of getting through them. See Hushed River Valley, Ash Canyon, Blackrock... again they encourage the player to travel around.
But with so many regions now though, and with so many reasons to explore, there is less draw to only settling to one place or in one region (as suppose there was in the early years of this game...), unless for the sake of a self imposed challenge... It used to be that for Stalker and below, loot tables would at least guarantee that you could find everything you need to survive in one region. But now that no longer seems to be the case? Interlopers of course have had to live nomadically since the start, but with the recent loot refresh it seems tools and guns have become more rarer, certainly more randomized, and requiring players to travel across regions to discover more items not necessarily found in just searching only one.
As an anecdote, My Voyageur run in the entirety of PV never found a knife, until I went into Keeper's Pass. Another run on DP has only found a knife so far due to beachcombing.
And with the recent speculative debate on why Tales of the Tales DLC were not added to Interloper looking like an incompatibility of the designs, I wonder if its time for the design of Interloper to be rethought out, regarding some of its old, rigid limitations, to be brought more in line with the other experience modes and thus compatible with the newer Tales DLC?
I'd start with the following suggestions:
* Rifles, revolvers and bows can spawn but in accordance with Low BRA meaning there is no guarantee one will be found on each map. Low random number for entire world. Low conditions, sparser ammo or shells.
* Tool items can spawn but rarer and no guarantee one will be found on each map. Low conditions and few condition restoring items means tool wear occurs sooner. Overhaul tool conditions with harvest times aka "sharpness"
* All clothing and food have chance to spawn but rare in accordance with Low BRA.
* No guaranteed spawns in single or dual predetermined locations.
* Randomized available forges and workshop tables.
Bullets are rare and crafting them is tedious
We know Custom exists but it doesn't solve this issue. You can still be lucky and find a revolver/riffle quite early with bullets.
One thing I guess we all agree with is that the absence of gun as well as tools at least early game makes what Interloper is. Beyond that Is there an interloper players that would be extremly upset to find a riffle with 10 bullets day 150? I tend to believe most of them would be extremly happy.
You have expectations every time you open a container. Rarer is the loot, higher is your joy. And suprises from time to time is what delay boredom (pretty sure most interlopers run stops because of boredom around day 100)
Last run I found 5 riffle ammo, 43 revolver ammo, climbing socks (Ice cave HRV), 3 revolvers (remote locations), Fisherman sweater (lower floor Abandonned Mine CH). 2 MRE and 3 GoEnergy Drinks (Mementos cache)
Those were so rare and so well placed in the world (I had to take chances to get them sometimes)... I made a 300 day run instead of my usual 80/100 days. By far the run that brought me the most joy.
Suggestion 1 :
> 1 riffle low condition (remote spawn location)
> 2 revolvers low condition (remote spawn location)
> no cleaning kit
> No bullets (only shells in the world and only few of them)
Suggestion 2 : Future Trader
> 1 riffle + 10 shells sold in exchange of 1 satchel (available after day 150 of after Archery LVL 5)
(Less enjoyable but still an option)
Boredom comes because of the lack of challenge. As soon as you feel "too safe" it's done. You close the game.
Cooking lvl5 is one example... you can eat predators and stockpile rotten fish/meat...
A whole "conservation" process and a lvl5 cooking rework would still allow the player to make decent amount of provision but not without some effort
This neverending source of supply fits well with Pilgrim/Voyageur and player who like to relax and enjoy the view. But it doesn't fit at all IMO for players who need to be stimulated by survival objectives.
@Erik the red. I too thought about posting something. But that's a lot of work. Thanks for yours. Very good abstract
In other words, there's room for improvements for Interloper as well as the custom mode. That's all we are saying.
- One, and only one, normal hatchet; and one, and only one, normal knife exist in the world. However, getting to them would be challenging and require clearing brush. This would mean that they could only be obtained after the player has forged, at minimum, the improvised hatchet. Additionally, they should be only obtainable in more remote and difficult regions. Finally, both the normal knife and hatchet would be found at 1% condition so the player would next need to go to BI and use the milling machine to fix them up. If this idea were implemented in some form, then I'd also suggest that whetstones no longer be available in interloper.
- Guns would be even more involved. I would suggest that gun parts be scattered across the 12-13 regions in remote locations (i.e. not in ML's Trapper's Homestead, and instead in, say, HRV's ice cavern, ML's lower section of the Cinder Hill's Mine, etc.). Once the player found all the parts, then they could take these to the milling machine and assemble them. Tonio, it sounds like you had something similar in mind to this.
- For high tier clothing, I'm less certain whether I support them being obtainable in interloper. I don't think it's enough for high tier items to simply be rare; I think that getting them should require overcoming substantial danger that could end the whole run. So maybe as a reward for completing one of the Tales? Maybe a possible spawn in the lower Cinder Hills Mine?
As I said, I agree with the overall sentiment and spirt of the ideas presented. Early game interloper, it's great that no guns are obtainable and that tools and weapons have to be forged and crafted from scratch. But once that's done, I think it'd be great to have longer term goals. So basically, I think that higher tier tools and clothing seem like a fine idea, as long as they are "gated" behind challenges that make it impossible to obtain them early game so that the early game interloper experience is preserved.It seems that for some Interlopers, its not necessarily the lack of tools that make the mode, but simply the main feature of having Low BRA, scarcity. They might not seem to mind if there are guns in their run, whether if its by design or glitched, and also, if found they could still choose to use them or not...
And as for myself and some other players it seems, Interloper is currently defined by its lack of tools and guns, and knowing that, not having an item is guaranteed, is worse than not having an item but still wondering whether to keep looking or do something else.
Its also just as bad for our immersion to be relying on searching for guaranteed spawns in order to survive. Its the logic of trying to feel lost in a world, that as veteran players with map knowledge is hard to achieve. I don't explore the world knowing ahead of time where I am going to go and what I'm going to find there (or specifically where), other than basic assumptions and generalizations of what sort of stuff is where.
And the final point here is again, that restricting these sort of things is just becoming arbitrary in Interloper... That because tools are useful and that guns are useful to survival, that survival gameplay loses its challenge? Meanwhile finding a sophisticated handheld radio that is there "to keep you from being bored" is perfectly acceptable. It makes no sense from an immersive aspect. Its not as if Interloper dropped you into the wilderness, real wilderness with nothing but trees and snow; this game is still chiefly an apocalyptic looter. It makes less sense being able to find and forge your own tools than searching around the wasteland for something already made.
I think part of the problem in that regard is that the forge was meant to be a late game, longevity mechanic, to use once tools wear out... But the Interloper mode as it was designed has you skip half that process.
Of course one of the biggest questions the game has had (and kept being asked every so often), is, despite boredom being a run killer, could one live indefinitely? A lot of the features added over the years have extended that life, whether you actually do or not. Sure the rarity of items via experience mode matters, as with the sheer amount of resources that potentially could be looted in the world (which increases with every map).
Used to be players would be concerned how many matches they found and have left. Tools would theoretically wear out, then might be forced to craft improvised sets... So I guess one of the questions is, do the resources ever run out? How much scrap metal is left to craft or repair tools, how many sapling arrows can you make, all boils down to what you could scavenge late game (reallllly late game that is) from beachcombing.
AMMUNITION :
1 - RAW MATERIALS ONLY [batteries,Dusting sulfur, shells,
Stump Remover]
2 - ALL [Previous ones +Ammo + Bullets + Gunpowder]
This option would :
- give access to this whole feature (Ammution bench + firearms) without making this run significantly easier
- force the player to go through the whole crafting process (that's what is enjoyable in crafting IMO - long chain of craft requiring plannification - I also think it's part of the Interloper identity)
- making it almost impossible to use any firearm early game (Since you'll have to go to BR/BI first)
I just want to point out a few more things (lol probably more in further responses...), but about these, some were added to combat against certain "cheesy" style of play. It sounds like before Interloper even, there were mechanics that allowed the player to reach a point where they could just live through the days, not just surviving as it is thriving (but with nothing do but sit, eat and sleep), so not so much thriving as the tactic was called by the community, Hibernation. Hence they added Cabin Fever to force the player to head outdoors more often.
And I think the Well Fed bonus is wonderfully balanced in terms of design, on all modes... a +5 weight capacity as bonus for staying fed is an excellent incentive considering all the extra stuff we can carry around and find in game now compared with the earlier game's smaller world and less variety of loot; at the cost of constantly eating to stay fed and thus dwindle your food resources faster. Not to mention also a small buff to overall condition. The old tactic of using starvation during the day and condition recovery during sleep to ration and extend your food resources and ergo survival time, while still viable, is counterbalanced by the incentive to carry more stuff, esp in the early game when you need to carry more stuff around.
That is of course coupled with "tanking" condition loss of any type, risking that you can safely lose some in a controlled environment and recover it later. The danger is that if doing so and the environment isn't as controlled as you thought can really compound and screw you over.
Also here's an amusing quote from the Interloper update video
https://youtu.be/OTx2Fv1dJoU?t=77
"Early playtesting shows most experienced players having difficulty surviving more than 10 days."
to a couple years later hearing of a Loper player achieve the Osman award by surviving for 10 years....
But I don't think it took long before Interlopers of the time figured out their early game survival "metas" to apply from the moment they spawn in. Its the only mode where the early gameplay was constrained and became defined by the "path to the forge" from pre-placed spawn to pre-placed spawn, due to its limitations. Stoning rabbits I suppose added in some early game hunting ability to obtain calories, that didn't require tools to harvest, and could be done in an all wilderness environment without needing to loot around for food (potentially extending the early game "path"). I'm not sure though just how sustainable that is, other than just a supplement to a player's diet.
I gotta say, I like that line of thinking. I definitely agree that some of Interloper is outdated. The idea of refreshing Interloper by getting it to adapt to all the things added is a spectacular idea and if they ever decided to do that, I would be so thrilled to try to play TLD again on one big ultimate challenge.
I like your ideas with guns, all clothing items, and tools being in the game. If I had to add something, it would just be what I said in my original post:
Guns should be available but with repairs and parts required to function, and even then they should be less effective and require you to craft most of your ammo.
Ideas like that, adding the rest of the content to the game but changing it slightly to fit the harsh and unforgiving mode of Interloper.
But either way, I think the idea of rebuilding/remaking Interloper to include all the content of the game WITHOUT resorting to a lower difficulty that makes the game feel less fun is a really interesting way to go.
I really hope to see more people talk about it, so that maybe there's a chance that they'll consider making Interloper the best it can be!
It seems like you've also done a solid job at wording my thoughts in a really good way.
I agree that the early game feeling of Interloper is a pretty exciting and thrilling feeling. You feel like you're racing against time with the world steadily adapting to you. You need to think, think fast and conduct yourself in a timely manner, using every minute wisely. There's even some goals like animal hides, tools, bows etc that need crafting.
After a while however, you run out of goals and the game play evens out to a samey cycle. I personally always quit after around day 50-60 etc because I feel like I've hit a wall. And here's the thing. It IS a survival game. One of the things in an endless survival game is that it's partially up to the player to find their own goals. But it feels like the wall gets hit too quick.
Your concepts have a mission to them. They feel like really good motivators and long term goals that could occupy the player and lead them through a thoughtful gauntlet that would really bring the resource management and difficulty back into the game. I hope that Hinterland sees our discussions and takes them into consideration!
Well said and 100% agree. I even have been accumulating wires and fuses - which do spawn in my custom Interloper mode yet there is no radio and no Transponders! I'm on day 155 and should not have to restart all over on easier level just to play some updates I paid for.....Hinterland please take note. You need to get past the "support the children" mindset and cater for all players - just adjust the loot amount for each cache/bunker and its all good then...
Now the (Interloper) world just drop ~20 degrees until day 60 and stabilize, wildlife and sticks remains the same.
I have impression that even Interloper wolves are "tuned down", in a post TFTF update (Tales) i have 2 wolf strung in Interloper, in one the wolf run away after just one Improvised Hatchet strike., in the other he basically eat my Ear Wrap.
Interloper - and the game; don't need became more easy (guns and etc), but have new mechanics.