Expansion/DLC

[millerk2020]

So, it's that time of the year when I check to see if the next episode for Wintermute has been released (been going on for a few years now) and to my surprise I see the release of a expansion & paid DLC and that episode 5 has been pushed back to the end of 23. Now I don't have anything against new content. But seriously, how about finishing the BASE GAME? Because when the end of 23 rolls around I can already see episode 5 being pushed back to 24 or 25 since you were too busy working on content for expansions and DLCs. See ya in a year...maybe.

[IvantheFormidable]

Originally posted by millerk2020:

As a customer I have every right to provide feedback to the developer. Don't like it, too bad. You're the one providing unsolicited comments, so that make you the troll.

And when you provide that feedback in a public forum, you invite discussion and debate from the community on the merits of your comments. Comments aren't "unsolicited" when you make a post on a public discussion forum.

[millerk2020]

Originally posted by IvantheFormidable:

Originally posted by millerk2020:

As a customer I have every right to provide feedback to the developer. Don't like it, too bad. You're the one providing unsolicited comments, so that make you the troll.

And when you provide that feedback in a public forum, you invite discussion and debate from the community on the merits of your comments. Comments aren't "unsolicited" when you make a post on a public discussion forum.

You can disagree with someone's point without resorting to personal attacks. Personal attacks are unsolicited regardless of the forum.

[IvantheFormidable]

Originally posted by millerk2020:

You can disagree with someone's point without resorting to personal attacks. Personal attacks are unsolicited regardless of the forum.

Fair enough; however, characterizing them as "unsolicited comments" rather than "personal attacks" from the onset muddles that point, imo.

But to your original post, the devs are still working on episode five. Last I was tracking, they have a dedicated team for Wintermute, and the expansion is likely being tackled by the team for the survival mode. While we could discuss the merits of whether or not they should redirect all efforts into Wintermute, leaving the survival players (which constitute the majority of the active playerbase) high and dry, I don't think that's a decision that's even on the table at this point.

It's a complicated problem with no real clear cut solution. They pitched the game as an episodic story based game, but hit a gold mine with the test bed survival mode. Forsaking either at this point would be silly, but there is still the question of money. Sure, they may owe the players who have already purchased the game the last episode, but that obligation doesn't pay the bills at this stage. Having paid DLC is a decent solution to help keep the lights on while they finish the story mode, otherwise it's hard to justify the expenses on having that dedicated team for the survival mode.

[Martial.Lore]

"Personal attack." What a joke.

Originally posted by millerk2020:

Originally posted by IvantheFormidable:

And when you provide that feedback in a public forum, you invite discussion and debate from the community on the merits of your comments. Comments aren't "unsolicited" when you make a post on a public discussion forum.

You can disagree with someone's point without resorting to personal attacks. Personal attacks are unsolicited regardless of the forum.

You want to explain to me which part of my post was a "personal attack?" 'Cause I just reread it and there aint nothing there but a bunch of questions. And "get a life." If that is what upset you then you seriously need to reconsider dumping on a Hinterland on a public forum. Even on just an annual basis.

[millerk2020]

Originally posted by Martial.Lore:

"Personal attack." What a joke.

Originally posted by millerk2020:

You can disagree with someone's point without resorting to personal attacks. Personal attacks are unsolicited regardless of the forum.

You want to explain to me which part of my post was a "personal attack?" 'Cause I just reread it and there aint nothing there but a bunch of questions. And "get a life." If that is what upset you then you seriously need to reconsider dumping on a Hinterland on a public forum. Even on just an annual basis.

Maybe it's just me, but calling someone a deranged malcontent troll seems pretty personal.

[Martial.Lore]

My bad. I omitted a question mark on the last question, before the simile. Fixed it.

[H34VY_R41N]

I'm with @Martial.Lore at this point. If you check the game once a year just to complain on forums - then it means less than nothing to you. Want to address the devs - write to them via e-mail, otherwise you're a troll and get what you deserve.

[Martial.Lore]

Originally posted by Mr_Purple:

I agree with OP, I get it that at this point Hinterland HAS to do this to keep themselves running but at the same time pushing episode 5 to "somewhere in the future w/o ETA" leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I'm a late comer to The Long Dark myself. But, since I started playing, Hinterland has:

Added 3, if not 4, entire new regions for both survival mode and Wintermute
Revamped Episode One of Wintermute
Added 2 new episodes for Wintermute
Added numerous game[play features that impact both modes of play
Created season play modes
Continued working on Episode 5 of Wintermute
Introduced a new way to keep the development of the game going for the very long term (DLC)

All since Jul 2019.

Do you not like what Hinterland has provided so far? Because when you complain about waiting for Episode 5, you are complaining about ALL of the above.

I recommend a good swish of mouthwash for, "the bad taste in your mouth." Don't forget to floss.

[Roman Richter]

Originally posted by Mr_Purple:

Originally posted by Martial.Lore:

I'm a late comer to The Long Dark myself. But, since I started playing, Hinterland has:

Added 3, if not 4, entire new regions for both survival mode and Wintermute
Revamped Episode One of Wintermute
Added 2 new episodes for Wintermute
Added numerous game[play features that impact both modes of play
Created season play modes
Continued working on Episode 5 of Wintermute
Introduced a new way to keep the development of the game going for the very long term (DLC)

All since Jul 2019.

Do you not like what Hinterland has provided so far? Because when you complain about waiting for Episode 5, you are complaining about ALL of the above.

I recommend a good swish of mouthwash for, "the bad taste in your mouth." Don't forget to floss.

I started playing between addition of PV and DP and I still find it unacceptable. I'm deeply sorry that you don't agree with me, buddy, but there's no need to get worked up over it. It's been a bloody decade and Story Mode is still not finished but paid DLC is already coming out. Gaming industry is f-ed thanks to apologists like you who let all empty promises slide.

I must agree, I was holding on game until 5 episode release, to play game from start to finish, and I was thinking that 5 episode was released already. Apparently I'm dumb for thinking that. I will hold on buying DLC for now.

[Martial.Lore]

Originally posted by Mr_Purple:

Gaming industry is f-ed thanks to apologists like you who let all empty promises slide.

Good to get such reasonably considered perspective on the issue. Thanks.

I have no regrets that we don't agree in this discussion. It makes for lively reading.

[IvantheFormidable]

Originally posted by Mr_Purple:

I started playing between addition of PV and DP and I still find it unacceptable. I'm deeply sorry that you don't agree with me, buddy, but there's no need to get worked up over it. It's been a bloody decade and Story Mode is still not finished but paid DLC is already coming out. Gaming industry is f-ed thanks to apologists like you who let all empty promises slide.

What empty promises are you speaking about? Hinterland has demonstrated, time and time again, that they will deliver the product they promised and more. I get it, it's been slow as all get out, and people are losing patience. I understand that. But nothing that Hinterland has done so far leads me to believe that they won't deliver Episode 5 when they're able to. Personally, I would rather wait for an Episode 5 that they're proud of instead of advocating for them to push it out ASAP. In a perfect world they would release it next week in an ideal state, but unfortunately that's not the world we live in.

Recognizing the realities of the world and how they impact business decisions doesn't make one an "apologist," and I'd be careful throwing it around as it brings us right back around into unproductive territory for discussion, given the baggage that the word carries.

Edit: Now, for all that I've said, I do think that it's worth discussing Hinterland and their timeline for release periodically in some capacity as it demonstrates to the devs that there are people who have bought the game, but may not be active players, who are waiting for the story mode release.

[Martial.Lore]

Originally posted by IvantheFormidable:

Recognizing the realities of the world and how they impact business decisions doesn't make one an "apologist," and I'd be careful throwing it around as it brings us right back around into unproductive territory for discussion, given the baggage that the word carries.

It's too late. I've already f....d up the gaming industry, apparently. Sorry about that.

Warning to all: I'm moving on to the cryptocurrency industry next. (Oh, darn it. Someone already beat me to it.)

[IvantheFormidable]

Originally posted by mskitty:

All this talk about promises kept or not kept is not the point, it's that they are going to sell a dlc before the base game is finished and that is a practice that scores of people will not support, I don't know what is so hard to understand about that, and why the people expressing that opinion are being berated for it.

And speaking of promises there is a disclaimer attached to the dlc "Features and content added to the Expansion are subject to development realities, and may change over time" So it sounds to me like there is no promise that all of the features mentioned will be delivered with this dlc, they are giving themselves an out this time.

A few things I'd like to address here:

1) The point is absolutely the phrase "empty promises," as I was directly addressing someone who used the phrase.

2) I don't think that I've berated anyone on this thread or any others. I can only speak for my own actions.

3) The problem isn't that the point folks are making is "hard to understand," but that I don't agree with everything that goes along with it. If someone doesn't support the idea of paid DLC, and wants to express their opinion publicly on the forum, then by all means they should. But that doesn't mean that that opinion isn't up for discussion.

4) As for your point about the DLC features not being set in stone, that's absolutely important to point out. And anyone that doesn't like the idea of paying for a product that they can't examine initially should beware, and most likely purchase the DLC after it's been complete if at all. Personally, the content not being fixed isn't a huge deal for me, particularly as Hinterland has delivered more than I expected them to over the years. As for the DLC, I'll see how much they want for it and estimate how much enjoyment I'll get out of what's there at the start, and then go from there.

[Martial.Lore]

Originally posted by mskitty:

I didn't mean for it sound like you were doing the berating, sorry for that, but I have certainly seen other people doing it.

I learned from the best, I assure you!

My point is that for lack of a single episode of a narrative that is not likely to win any great prizes, some people seem to forget that what Hinterland has delivered so far goes way beyond even the original Kickstarter promises, in terms of content, if not of narrative completion.

I simply think that people who wait so impatiently for Episode 5 that they get snarky about the wait on the forum, and get upset that others berate them for being snarky, should just go read a book, or something. There's a lot better stories out there. In every medium. There for the taking and not the waiting.

(I'm being descriptive here. Not prescriptive.)

[IvantheFormidable]

Originally posted by mskitty:

I didn't mean for it sound like you were doing the berating, sorry for that, but I have certainly seen other people doing it.

Ah, understood. My apologies for taking it personally.

Originally posted by Martial.Lore:

I simply think that people who wait so impatiently for Episode 5 that they get snarky about the wait on the forum, and get upset that others berate them for being snarky, should just go read a book, or something. There's a lot better stories out there. In every medium. There for the taking and not the waiting.

I generally agree with this, but at the same time, I think it's important that we not act like the wait for Wintermute to be finished hasn't been much longer than anticipated. So there's definitely a balance to be struck between reminding Hinterland that folks are anxiously waiting for Episode 5 and dismissing concerns over the timeline as unfounded. While I find the paid DLC for survival mode to be a sound decision for both the business and the game, there was no realistic way for Hinterland to announce the DLC without leaving a bad taste in the mouths of those still waiting for what was pitched way back in 2014, even if the survival mode is far beyond what was promised.