How does this new aiming mechanic work?

[Seriously Unserious]

I got used to the old aiming mechanic for the rifle and bow, but I can't seem to get a handle on what's going on with this new aiming mechanic. It just seems purely random if either a rifle or bow shot actually hits what I'm pointing it at. If it is purely RNG driven then I'm not a fan. If there's some new trick to it, then I'd like some info on how the heck it works so I can actually USE the weapons to hunt and defend myself with. As it stands, all weapons are 100% nerfed to be virtually useless due to the fact that the aiming mechanic just feels "off" to me. I get no feedback as to where the "sweet spot" is or how I'm off if my aim was bad. Before at least I could tell if my shot was high, low, left or right and could adjust my aim to compensate and learn how it works. Now it just seems to mysteriously either "hit" or "miss" with no way of knowing what I did right or wrong to create the result. If you're gong to make such radical, wholesale changes, at least give us some feedback on how the thing actually works, don't just say "we changed the aiming mechanics" and leave it at that.

[Ogre]

I haven't shot the bow yet, but did some experimenting shooting the rifle at a rock face from moderate distance. The shots seem to hit exact middle of screen, regardless of iron sights location. I put a smudge on my laptop screen with my wife's eyeliner, and went 2 for 2 on the wolves I shot using that as an aim point. Two isn't a very big test, but I'm going with that for now.

[Seriously Unserious]

Originally posted by Ogre:

I haven't shot the bow yet, but did some experimenting shooting the rifle at a rock face from moderate distance. The shots seem to hit exact middle of screen, regardless of iron sights location. I put a smudge on my laptop screen with my wife's eyeliner, and went 2 for 2 on the wolves I shot using that as an aim point. Two isn't a very big test, but I'm going with that for now.

I tried experimenting by using the sign at ML camp office at a target. With the rifle, the shots seem to be all over the place, no real rhyme or reason I can find to it, The game just seems to put the bullets wherever it wants, regardless of where I pointed the rifle when I shot. I am noticing a tendency for the shots to go low most of the time. I was using the "M" at the beginning of the French version of the name, and even when I'd have the sight lined up above the "M" almost all shots would hit below or beside the "M". It seems to me the placement of the sight may be a bit high compared to where the shots actually go. Of course, the character I'm testing with is lvl 1 with the rifle so that may be affecting things. I'll test again in another run where my character's maxed out in rifle skill and see if that makes a difference.

The bow was problematic at first, until I realized the shots all seem to veer off to the right of where I'm aiming, once I figured out that the aiming got a lot better, was able to put the arrows inside the logo most of the time

[Seriously Unserious]

I just finished my test with my other run, my character's lvl 4 in rifle, and lvl 5 in bows.

First test was with the rifle, firing 10 shots with the target being the part of the sign above the "M" in the French version of the name on the camp office sign. Then I took another 10 shots aiming at the "A" in "LAC".

I was generall aiming a bit high intentionally as I noticed the rifle still has a tendency to hit low compared to where I'm aiming.

The 2 screenshots below show roughly how I was aiming the rifle.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1735392566

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1735392599

Next I took 5 shots with the bow, this time using the logo on the left of the sign. 4/5 shots I could confirm hit inside the logo area, with 1 resulting in a broken arrow so no way of knowing for sure where that one hit. I again noticed the shots tend to veer to the right, even with archery maxed out, which I never had before, they'd shoot where I was pointing the arrow pre-Steadfast Ranger update.

Here's a screenshot of the results.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1735392633

Unfortunately, I didn't think to take any screenshots from my lvl 1 tests, but I did notice that the bullet impacts are more tightly spaced in the lvl 4 rifle skill test, so rifle skill definitely is playing a huge role in the accuracy, probably even more so then previously, when a skilled player could get used to the rhithem of the rifle sway and accurately compensate for it, which with the way more unpredictable is not possible now. The rifle also has a tendency to hit lower then the sight indicates it should hit, which may be intended or may be a bug. Either way, it does make hitting an intended target harder then it should be as I can't see the target as it's hidden behind the sight peg if I'm compensating for the low shot bias.

That's also not an accurate representation of how gun aim should work as firearms tend to have a powerful kickback which tends to raise the barrel above the target. The animation after shooting the rifle reflects this, but where the bullets hit does not, and in fact does the opposite of what the animation is showing. I'm sure people who are experienced with firearms could confirm this.

[bb 80]

What I find so strange about it is that it is really easy to shot with a rifle. I was in the military where I was a pretty good shot but in this game I sometimes miss when something is 20m away which always baffles me.

[Seriously Unserious]

Originally posted by bb 80:

What I find so strange about it is that it is really easy to shot with a rifle. I was in the military where I was a pretty good shot but in this game I sometimes miss when something is 20m away which always baffles me.

If it's a charging wolf, that would be understandable as a rifle is more optimized for long range shots and at short range I would expect it to be hard to line up a shot on a rapidly moving target. What I'm finding messing up my aim with this update is that the shots go low every time, so I have to aim above the target to hit, and then lose the target behind the sight.

Since you've had experience with firearms, can you confirm this statement, or am I wrong in this assumption?

Originally posted by serously_unserious:

That's also not an accurate representation of how gun aim should work as firearms tend to have a powerful kickback which tends to raise the barrel above the target. The animation after shooting the rifle reflects this, but where the bullets hit does not, and in fact does the opposite of what the animation is showing. I'm sure people who are experienced with firearms could confirm this.

[Zornvel]

Originally posted by bb 80:

What I find so strange about it is that it is really easy to shot with a rifle. I was in the military where I was a pretty good shot but in this game I sometimes miss when something is 20m away which always baffles me.

Yes you are right, even if people say but it's cold and so one I also had wintershootings,even if the military weapons were pretty good (I berely missed anything up to 200m) But even with a hunting rifle it is hard to miss a target under 50m but I think it's just a game mechanic it should not be realisitic but playable.

But there a lot of gamemechanics that don't really fit in the real world so have fun.

[Seriously Unserious]

Originally posted by Zornvel:

But there a lot of gamemechanics that don't really fit in the real world so have fun.

Those indestructable wooden doors that axes mysteriously can't cut through, and that the lock can't be forced, picked or smashed so can only be opened with the proper key so the door creates an inescapable barrier to getting through it comes to mind -- that and the touch it for instant death water that many games, especially older NES era ones had.

[bb 80]

Originally posted by Seriously Unserious:

Originally posted by bb 80:

What I find so strange about it is that it is really easy to shot with a rifle. I was in the military where I was a pretty good shot but in this game I sometimes miss when something is 20m away which always baffles me.

If it's a charging wolf, that would be understandable as a rifle is more optimized for long range shots and at short range I would expect it to be hard to line up a shot on a rapidly moving target. What I'm finding messing up my aim with this update is that the shots go low every time, so I have to aim above the target to hit, and then lose the target behind the sight.

Since you've had experience with firearms, can you confirm this statement, or am I wrong in this assumption?

Originally posted by serously_unserious:

That's also not an accurate representation of how gun aim should work as firearms tend to have a powerful kickback which tends to raise the barrel above the target. The animation after shooting the rifle reflects this, but where the bullets hit does not, and in fact does the opposite of what the animation is showing. I'm sure people who are experienced with firearms could confirm this.

Not to my knowledge. This is only a problem with rapid fire like MPs or machine guns. The first shot, with good breathing should go where you aim. That is kind of the point.

Originally posted by Zornvel:

Originally posted by bb 80:

What I find so strange about it is that it is really easy to shot with a rifle. I was in the military where I was a pretty good shot but in this game I sometimes miss when something is 20m away which always baffles me.

Yes you are right, even if people say but it's cold and so one I also had wintershootings,even if the military weapons were pretty good (I berely missed anything up to 200m) But even with a hunting rifle it is hard to miss a target under 50m but I think it's just a game mechanic it should not be realisitic but playable.

But there a lot of gamemechanics that don't really fit in the real world so have fun.

I guess but it always breaks immersion for me when I miss a dear that is 30m away which for anybody who has shot more then a few times should be borderline impossible.

[JustJen]

I love this game, but man does this new shooting mechanic suck. Sigh.

[Barking Sands]

Thanks Seriously Unserious. No wonder I couldn't hit anything. I was using the ghost ring center as the true zero and ignoring the front sight post because it's low of center and my first shot attempt appeared to be high, not low (apparently it was way low and I was seeing ghosts).

In the screenshot, the ghost ring center is near the top of the sign and the front sight is between the two lines of text. In reality, a sight is only aligned when the top of the front sight post splits the circle directly in the middle between the top and bottom halves. I hope this gets corrected in a future hot-fix.

[Seriously Unserious]

Originally posted by bb 80:

Originally posted by Seriously Unserious:

If it's a charging wolf, that would be understandable as a rifle is more optimized for long range shots and at short range I would expect it to be hard to line up a shot on a rapidly moving target. What I'm finding messing up my aim with this update is that the shots go low every time, so I have to aim above the target to hit, and then lose the target behind the sight.

Since you've had experience with firearms, can you confirm this statement, or am I wrong in this assumption?

Not to my knowledge. This is only a problem with rapid fire like MPs or machine guns. The first shot, with good breathing should go where you aim. That is kind of the point.

Thanks for clarifying. How about for an inexperienced shooter? Could they run into problems with the kickback causing them to miss high before learning to compensate, or does that set in after the bullet's left the barrel so it does not matter for the first shot and only messes up aim for subsequent shots?

I'm just wondering because the laws of physics are that "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" so the force propelling the bullet forward would also be propelling the gun backward, which would meet resistance either from the hand holding it or the shoulder it's resting against, redirecting the force upward.

[Seriously Unserious]

Originally posted by Barking Sands:

Thanks Seriously Unserious. No wonder I couldn't hit anything. I was using the ghost ring center as the true zero and ignoring the front sight post because it's low of center and my first shot attempt appeared to be high, not low (apparently it was way low and I was seeing ghosts).

In the screenshot, the ghost ring center is near the top of the sign and the front sight is between the two lines of text. In reality, a sight is only aligned when the top of the front sight post splits the circle directly in the middle between the top and bottom halves. I hope this gets corrected in a future hot-fix.

No problem. With higher levels of shooting the shots do consistently hit the same area, just not the area the gun's pointing at, so the new aiming mechanic's at least partially working and IMO will be an improvement once they get the aiming bug fixed, so the shots properly centre on the sight

[Serchine]

And I remember the dev log said they wanted to make shooting less frustrated, huh, very funny

[bb 80]

Originally posted by Seriously Unserious:

Originally posted by bb 80:

Not to my knowledge. This is only a problem with rapid fire like MPs or machine guns. The first shot, with good breathing should go where you aim. That is kind of the point.

Thanks for clarifying. How about for an inexperienced shooter? Could they run into problems with the kickback causing them to miss high before learning to compensate, or does that set in after the bullet's left the barrel so it does not matter for the first shot and only messes up aim for subsequent shots?

I'm just wondering because the laws of physics are that "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" so the force propelling the bullet forward would also be propelling the gun backward, which would meet resistance either from the hand holding it or the shoulder it's resting against, redirecting the force upward.

For inexperienced shooters the fear of the shoot is the bigger problem. Like closing you eyes shortly before pulling the trigger. Most people have no idea how loud shooting is. "Older" weapons can also be quite painful to shot for inexperienced people because of the heavy recoil.

If you have a weapon with rear sight and grain (in other words not a modern military rifle) then you just line them up and shoot. What makes it a little difficult in the game is that the so called "grain" is pretty huge.

The recoil should have no effect on the bullet at least for the first shot. Any further questions would have to be answered by a weapons expert. There are special technicians who maintain military weapons which includes assuring that the rifle shots where you aim.
Many modern weapons have (basically) no recoil at all, though. Like the G36.

[Nil Desperandum]

Originally posted by Serchine:

And I remember the dev log said they wanted to make shooting less frustrated, huh, very funny

Yep! between you, me and the gatepost the devs were definitely "Having a laugh!" It took eight bullets to bring down a moose yesterday from 20 feet away on TWM. Before the update the most ammo its ever took is four arrows, two bullets and I've been shooting moose since the 'moose' update was released.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w1y-kMPNcM

Be Lucky!