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where is my captain Sydney plush? the jar has already arrived and here i am stuck waiting for the release.
About not losing skills:
This change only inhances the PvP aspect of the game. Also this change destroys the usefulness of the following features:
Library structure: We mostly use this structure to store EXP for when dying to have some sort of backup to our skills, by making default not losing skills, this structure is basically useless(especially on maps that don't have NPC trading)
Blood moons: We use this feature to farm exp, by making default not losing skills, we only have to farm the blood moon twice and that's it, never need to worry about exp again.
Character jobs: If we're not losing any skills, why have the character jobs retain any sort of skills? I mean, why bother having character jobs anyway.
Now on the PvP aspect: Unturned is a survival game first, and this change to the vanilla game only encourages more PvP, and players that are more experienced now don't need to fear any loss when playing the vanilla game more agressevely, and I think we shouldn't encourage this type of playstyle on vanilla, players should really fear death and play more strategecally so they can not lose their skills. And also, when I die, I really like to farm the EXP again, it's a nice gameplay loop. Not only that, when I manage to kill someone, that has a bigger base and more items than me, I know that this guy is a bit more weaker so I can have some sort of advantage. It's a really fun mechanic for both parties who died and who kills we get a sensation of losing or removing something from someone. Also this makes the PvP much less frequent, making excilarating when it happens. By not losing skills, PvP can happen all the time and it makes the game become competitive instead of survival and base building, I don't want to engage in another competitive shooter.
About character saves:
The fun part about character saves is that is another way you can have a backup of skills, also you can make another character with a different job to support another character. Not only that, when i'm playing alone and don't want to loose anything on the first character in a multiplayer server, I can just chill out in another character who I don't care too much about, it makes me play the game a lot more. Also, I've known some players who bought Unturned gold just because of the more characters feature mentioned on the DLC. So it's not nice to remove another thing the get from the Unturned gold feature (remember that you've already diminished gold servers by opening the server loot configs, back in 2.0 gold servers had more loot).
Now, I really like the vanilla game, and I think when we say "vanilla" it means the game design and game configuration is going to use all of it's features, and these default changes really hurt the vanilla experience.
Now some players may say "well if you don't like it just change it in the server configs", yeah but I don't have money to buy my own server, and to be honest vanilla servers are already rare, mostly what I find are PvP servers that the player already spawns with full skills, and that's another reason why you shouldn't have bothered changing the default settings of losing skills, PvP servers already use the full skills config.
I think you should really be careful when changing any server default settings, since the game worked this way for so long, and there's so many features built exactly for these features.
L update
Why?????
My critique of your comment.
“About not losing skills:
This change only enhances the PvP aspect of the game. Also this change destroys the usefulness of the following features:
Library structure: We mostly use this structure to store EXP for when dying to have some sort of backup to our skills, by making default not losing skills, this structure is basically useless(especially on maps that don't have NPC trading)”
- Library structures are not completely useless as they can still give exp to newer players/friends who join later on a server which can be a huge time saver for people. I’ve personally used Libraries for that exact purpose.
“Blood moons: We use this feature to farm exp, by making default not losing skills, we only have to farm the blood moon twice and that's it, never need to worry about exp again.”
- Blood moons have always been for loot and the secondary gain was exp because loot always drops from the zombies you killed. I used to play PVE alot and even without the threat of losing all of my skills to a player I still went to locations during blood moons to farm for high tier gear. Biggest example of this was Holman Isle, PEI. I would grind for rocket launchers and thief gear from the zombies once the full moon hit. So this core feature of Unturned isn’t completely destroyed due to this change.
“Character jobs: If we're not losing any skills, why have the character jobs retain any sort of skills? I mean, why bother having character jobs anyway.”
- Character Jobs are still useful for making skills cheaper because you still need to upgrade skills. The smartest players usually cheese the skill job system to get max skills quickly/effectively by switching to a new job once they max out their current one.
“Now on the PvP aspect: Unturned is a survival game first, and this change to the vanilla game only encourages more PvP, and players that are more experienced now don't need to fear any loss when playing the vanilla game more aggressively, and I think we shouldn't encourage this type of playstyle on vanilla, players should really fear death and play more strategically so they can not lose their skills.”
- When it comes to a survival game that have combat systems in place with other people, pvp is an aspect of that survival game. PvP and survival are not mutually exclusive things in Unturned and shouldn’t be treated as such. With that being said, saying that players with more experience now doesn't need to fear any loss when playing vanilla is ridiculous. What about the player’s items? vehicles? bases? These are all things players like me worry about when playing vanilla more aggressively. There are still things to lose as the player that are outside of skills. People are still gonna need to act strategically not to lose those things so that concept is still in Unturned.
“And also, when I die, I really like to farm the EXP again, it's a nice gameplay loop.”
- I’ve never met anyone who believes or say’s this. IMO gameplay loops shouldn’t be “let me spend the next 20 mins hitting trees to gain my skills back to before I died” it should be more akin to material progression and building up.
“Not only that, when I manage to kill someone, that has a bigger base and more items than me, I know that this guy is a bit more weaker so I can have some sort of advantage.”
- There are already a lot of advantages given to you once you have killed a player outside of their base. First the 30 second timer on beds. That should be more than enough time to heal up and prepare for another assault. Second is gear. Once the player does respawn back inside their base, depending on how they go about it, they can either get full kitted again or run out with just a weapon to try to kill you. Third advantage is your ability to leave the area after the kill. If you're quick enough you can make an escape with the players loot and get out in time before they are able to effectively chase you down. These are all advantages given to the player that are outside of skill loss.
“It's a really fun mechanic for both parties who died and who kills we get a sensation of losing or removing something from someone. Also this makes the PvP much less frequent, making it exhilarating when it happens.”
- For me PvP being less frequent doesn’t make it more exhilarating when it happens. I think the exhilarating part of it is how good my technical skill is or how well I played the situation. Not the frequency.
“By not losing skills, PvP can happen all the time and it makes the game become competitive instead of survival and base building, I don't want to engage in another competitive shooter.”
- PvP can’t happen all the time if you don’t have the necessary items to effectively pvp then you simply just can’t. Try fighting a maple with your hands and see how well that works out for you.
If you don’t want to engage in a competitive game then that’s fine you can do that but competitiveness should be encouraged within unturned to keep it more exhilarating and fun on a vanilla front.
“About character saves:
The fun part about character saves is that is another way you can have a backup of skills, also you can make another character with a different job to support another character.”
- With the new system in place there is no need for the backup skills now. Jobs can always be switched on the character customization screen.
“Not only that, when i'm playing alone and don't want to lose anything on the first character in a multiplayer server, I can just chill out with another character who I don't care too much about, it makes me play the game a lot more. Also, I've known some players who bought Unturned gold just because of the more characters featured on the DLC. So it's not nice to remove another thing they get from the Unturned gold feature (remember that you've already diminished gold servers by opening the server loot configs, back in 2.0 gold servers had more loot).”
- This is a massive problem when it comes to Unturned vanilla. You shouldn’t be given a character storage container that is completely unreachable to everyone else until you join back onto the game on that character. People can store tons of loot on their alts and hoard all the best loot without any worry whatsoever. That isn’t healthy for the game whatsoever. A player shouldn’t be able to have that ability of having everything without being able to lose it. It’s what makes late game vanilla almost unplayable for new players. When it comes to the gold upgrade I think that’s a valid argument but it's not like the feature was completely removed as servers can still decide whether to keep it on or not. Servers have already made these changes on their own; this is just now the default.
“Now, I really like the vanilla game, and I think when we say "vanilla" it means the game design and game configuration is going to use all of its features, and these default changes really hurt the vanilla experience.
Now some players may say "well if you don't like it just change it in the server configs", yeah but I don't have money to buy my own server, and to be honest vanilla servers are already rare”
- I don’t think these default changes hurt the vanilla experience as the vanilla experience has been on its deathbed for so long now. I remember when it used to be played so much back in 2014-2015 but now it is a complete shadow of its former self. It’s so hard now to find a vanilla server due to players not wanting to play it due to its issues that this update has somewhat addressed. That’s why people play alternative versions of this game.
“mostly what I find are PvP servers that the player already spawns with full skills, and that's another reason why you shouldn't have bothered changing the default settings of losing skills, PvP servers already use the full skills config.”
- Just because the community did something to change the game doesn’t mean the main game can’t. Imagen applying that logic to the voting system back when that came out. “Most servers have the voting system off so you shouldn't have bothered changing the default settings of voting” like that would be ridiculous and would have hurt the vanilla scene more so if that logic was followed.
“I think you should really be careful when changing any server default settings, since the game worked this way for so long, and there's so many features built exactly for these features.”
- I think Nelson is being careful when it comes to changing stuff for Unturned and just because something has been the same for so long doesn’t mean it shouldn’t change. Some things are just old and need to be reworked and none of the features you mentioned have not been made completely obsolete due to this update.
Hey cuycuycharles, thank you for your time to discuss this with me, and to show your point of view in so many aspects.
I would like to reinforce some of my arguments, and maybe bring some additional ones to the table, in feedback to your response.
1. Why Nelson wasn't careful enough:
I think if he really did think this through, he wouldn't place these changes in some random update, without any explanation why and from where he got feedback to do this.
Another reason I think he didn't think this through, you see, I do agree on your arguments that Libraries, Blood Moons and Character Jobs didn't become useless, but you got to agree with me that they were at least cut by half, and to me, that's not a very smart balancing change. If you guys(including Nelson), really wanted to nerf losing skills so much, so the vanilla game wouldn't be so boring when it comes to refarming skills, why make such a drastic change out of nowhere? Why not buff the skill retaining to 80%, or 90% or even make some sort of new rule when it comes to skill retantion/farming, why make so no skills are lost in the risk of damaging other features?
Not only that, he forgot about the part of updating the Unturned Gold page, in the page it says: "Extra character slots for singleplayer and multiplayer", but now that this feature is disabled for basically ~90% of servers I think it should be disclosed on the DLC. Also by making this change I think it could have some legal problems for announcing/selling something that's not included by default on the game. It could have implications for people who already bought the DLC.
2. Some extra arguments for PvP:
Yes, there are other things to lose that the player has to worry about on PvP besides losing skills. But seriously, in my opinion when it comes to PvP, players don't like to fight without full skills, so by having the losing skills feature is pretty good way to make firefights much shorter, because players who want to fight start feeling powerless after a couple of deaths, and that's really good because it avoids those boring without end fights. And to be honest, for an experienced player dying and scavaging a gun(or getting from its base) isn't difficult. But it is difficult to find this gun and fight it with less skills levels. And I really like that, I think it enhances the aspect of survival in the game, if you die, you really lose something else besides just your items, it gives a feel that you really died and have to start another life, and that's what increases the stakes of PvP and makes it more fun.
Now I've noticed something interesting in this part that you mentioned
"For me PvP being less frequent doesn’t make it more exhilarating when it happens. I think the exhilarating part of it is how good my technical skill is or how well I played the situation. Not the frequency"
You mention that the fun part of the game for you is to analyze how was your performance on a PvP session, to me that's really a competitive shooter trait. In my opinion the fun in the game is the immersion aspect, I like to feel that I'm part of the world and being on it could be a pleasent experience or not, not everything has to be perfectly balanced so the only thing we have as a decider is player behaviour when a situation starts, life is unfair and I think it increases the survival aspect of the game.
On this comment of yours
"Just because the community did something to change the game doesn’t mean the main game can’t. Imagen applying that logic to the voting system back when that came out. “Most servers have the voting system off so you shouldn't have bothered changing the default settings of voting” like that would be ridiculous and would have hurt the vanilla scene more so if that logic was followed."
I really think is a bit different, we're talking about the default game balacing and feeling (towards more PvP or slow paced survival game), not a feature that works for server administration.
3. About character saves
On second thought, yes, character saves are bad for the balance of the game, I didn't think experienced players could abuse them so much. So I agree with your arguments.
4. In conclusion
Yes vanilla is dying, and Nelson should do something to revive it, even if it means to make it a little bit more fast paced and less punitive(which I don't like), but I think those changes were too drastic and he should think a little bit more on some sort of more towards the middle of survival/pvp, and this update was a move that went too much towards PvP in my opinion.
Ps: I just want to make sure you understand I'm talking about the vanilla experience, what should the default for Unturned really be? Survival / More focused on PvP(less punitive by nature and more player balanced). I'm aware that we can change stuff in server settings.