So... about Gryphon

[Shura]

If im not completely mistaken in the Gryphons Move list it says something similar to "The kick can be executed after any second attack in a chain"


Yeah. So were just gonna ignore that he can forward light into kick. Dodge attack into Kick. Oh and dont forget he can double light like the Orochi and let a kick follow - i get that those are 2 attacks but come on. The Kick gives you a free heavy all the time, is the only UNREACTABLE move in the game (Yes, it is unreactable, you have to predict it) and the requirement to be able to perform it is that easy?


I mean... at least hide your Pay-to-win strategies a bit. Youre not even TRYING to hide the fact that youre ruining a good game with your greed for money. Come on Ubisoft, what the f is going on with you?

[Gaser]

The bash on its own isnt unreactable, the option make it that.

His neutral pressure game is kinda weak and lacks any meaningful way of opening tool.

The mix up is pretty decent tho far from the strongest in my opinion.

If you have trouble with the mix up frezze made a video how to optimally deal with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm6Ul0yLs8c

Really the only things of problem are his dodge attack and his crossbow. (tho all his healing feats are kinda flawed do tho the fact that all healing feats remove bleed.)

Besides that the only thing I can really think about as well is tho maybe lower kick dmg by 2 so he gets the same dmg has valk from her sweep, seeing how his mix up is based around the same kinda of mix up tool valk has.

[Cercamon]

Where do you see pay-to-win strategy?

[Mishipeshu]

Originally posted by Cercamon:

Where do you see pay-to-win strategy?

Throw new OP hero, idiots buy early access to it and etc, nerf it, repeat.

[Shura]

Originally posted by Mishipeshu:

Originally posted by Cercamon:

Where do you see pay-to-win strategy?

Throw new OP hero, idiots buy early access to it and etc, nerf it, repeat.

Couldnt have said it better. THAT is the exact way on how they are making money. By giving players WITH money the opportunity to have a much higher chance at winning and animating them to spend their money. I mean, come on, unblockable lights is also only performable by one champion and he was released as a new dlc.

[Gaser]

Originally posted by Silent Silvester:

Originally posted by Mishipeshu:

Throw new OP hero, idiots buy early access to it and etc, nerf it, repeat.

Couldnt have said it better. THAT is the exact way on how they are making money. By giving players WITH money the opportunity to have a much higher chance at winning and animating them to spend their money. I mean, come on, unblockable lights is also only performable by one champion and he was released as a new dlc.

Shaman, Highlander, Aramusha, Nuxia, Shoalin, Jorm and Sun Da would like to have a word with ya...

[Ierr]

Originally posted by Gaser:

The bash on its own isnt unreactable, the option make it that.

His neutral pressure game is kinda weak and lacks any meaningful way of opening tool.

The mix up is pretty decent tho far from the strongest in my opinion.

If you have trouble with the mix up frezze made a video how to optimally deal with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm6Ul0yLs8c

Really the only things of problem are his dodge attack and his crossbow. (tho all his healing feats are kinda flawed do tho the fact that all healing feats remove bleed.)

Besides that the only thing I can really think about as well is tho maybe lower kick dmg by 2 so he gets the same dmg has valk from her sweep, seeing how his mix up is based around the same kinda of mix up tool valk has.

His bash from neutral doesn't count or what?

Why do you compare his heavy after kick to valk's stab after sweep when it takes a bit more effort for her to get to sweep (no double lights, no sweep from dodge attack, etc)?

Btw, have anybody counted how many combos it takes to take down average avangard? 3-4? Isn't it the concept that Ubi wanted to prevent with CCU - so nobody would be dead after few failed reads?

I would greatly appreciate your detailed reply on that :)

[Foster]

It's not the only unreactable attack in the game, and technically since every Gryphon and their mother does the kick as the followup attack and no the undodgeable or what have you, then you can technically react to it by just mashing out dodge upon getting hit with an opener.

[Ash]

Originally posted by Cercamon:

Where do you see pay-to-win strategy?

Release the new hero broken, then patch him next 1-2 seasons.
I love that business model.

[Gaser]

Originally posted by Ierr:

His bash from neutral doesn't count or what?

Its a 600ms neutral bash, honestly the only good thing about it is that you are not required to hit with it to keep attacking.

600ms bashes are quite terrible do tho the fact that people are able to react to these with only rather minimal training.

Originally posted by Ierr:

Why do you compare his heavy after kick to valk's stab after sweep when it takes a bit more effort for her to get to sweep (no double lights, no sweep from dodge attack, etc)?

Because both Valk and Gryphon share the same gimmick of having a combo finishing bash mix up as the third move in a combo that gives you a heavy attack (that both have simliar dmg) if the bash lands. (Honestly everyone with at least half a brain and some game knowledge should see that)

Only differnce is that Gryphons mix up actaully applys pressure.

Valk on the other hand you can just react to the sweep, only if you want to gb the sweep then you have to do a read but why would you do that if you could just react to it.


Sure gryphon has a easier time to get in to his mix up then valk, but that comes more from the fact that valks way to get to her mix ups are limited and pretty much all suck. (Like the only thing she can is maybe loop a bit with the bash cancel, tho that is pulling it as well)

Originally posted by Ierr:

Btw, have anybody counted how many combos it takes to take down average avangard? 3-4? Isn't it the concept that Ubi wanted to prevent with CCU - so nobody would be dead after few failed reads?

That is hard to to really say.

Double light in to kick would be 43 dmg.

Double light in to heavy would total at around 45 dmg.

and Double light in to light would be at around 29 dmg.

His dmg numbers are mostly in line with what we have in the game.

• Opener Lights do 12 dmg
  
  
• Double Lights do 3 dmg
  
  
• FInisher Lights do 14 dmg
  
  
• Opener Heavys do 24 dmg
  
  
• Second Heavy are 25 dmg
  
  
• Finisher are 30 and 32 from top. (tho no clue why top got 2 points more)
  
  
• His heavy after kick is 28 (I would lower that to valks dmg)
  
  
• Forward dodge light is 14 dmg
  
  
• Forward dodge heavy is 22 dmg
  
  
• Side Dodge Heavy is 16 dmg
  
  
• Zone Attack is 15 dmg

The only things that are not fitting on these numbers are his top heavy and his bash heavy having 2 more dmg.

In the end I would say yes he is pretty good at dealing combo dmg tho the mix up itself is not unbeatable and as said his neutral game is lacking. ( I would say there are far saver and better mix ups in this game.)

Not to mention its a pain to set up the kick consitently in ganks do tho the hit stun system in the game.

Honestly I think the main issue people should have is his dodge attack being a get out of jail free card like kenseis and his feat balance.

Originally posted by Ierr:

I would greatly appreciate your detailed reply on that :)

Here you go ^^

[Ierr]

Thx, Gaser :)

On bash: he has one, unlike some characters that don't have any opener. Animation is not that obvious, though, so i can only take "600 ms bash is slow" as an argument for duels where you can focus on single opponent. As for now, it is easy to miss the start-up that can happen at any time. Also - imagine if it was 400-500 ms bash, would it be good or OP? I guess that'd be safe bash-meta for this character.

On Valk and Gryphon "same gimmick": i don't really know what to say. To my mind, you dismantled your own argument - yes, they look the same, but gryphon's mix-up can be accessed more easily, gryphon's mix-up has actual pressure and, frankly, you only need to dodge valk on orange while you have to make a read for gryphon _every_ time. You posted freeze's vid, ok, but he does admit that it is very easy to play gryphon efficiently while it takes certain effort to counter him. That's way too many differencies that call for more tweaks rather than "let's just remove 2 damage" - gryphon puts almost same amount of pressure on every character in the game that features different sizes of HP pool.

On damage numbers: i believe you need to compare not damage per hit but damage per combo when it comes to gryphon.
You get to make a read twice - on his combo start and mid-combo (kick, undodgeable light, heavy, nothing into gb or shove). Since we have CCU (and gryphon has that neat bash from neutral among other tools, like wiffed dash light into kick), first read can be challenging and will punish you with 14-32 dmg. I am not sure if it can be called read here since it is purely guessing + luck at this point. Failing mid-combo read can increase overall damage to 40+ HP, it is around 1/3 of avangard's health pool.
If i recall correctly, the idea of damage nerf with CCU was to allow people to survive more hits and adjust their tactics to counter opponent (in other words, to move from guessing to reading instead of dying after making 3-4 mistakes). Well, that doesn't really work with gryphon - the punish for just few mistakes is unreasonably high.

[Deleted irony about "everyone with at least half a brain and some game knowledge should see that"].

Edit: typos and grammar. Probably failed effort anyway XD

[Gaser]

Originally posted by Ierr:

Thx, Gaser :)

On bash: he has one, unlike some characters that don't have any opener. Animation is not that obvious, though, so i can only take "600 ms bash is slow" as an argument for duels where you can focus on single opponent. As for now, it is easy to miss the start-up that can happen at any time. Also - imagine if it was 400-500 ms bash, would it be good or OP? I guess that'd be safe bash-meta for this character.

If it was 400-500 then that would be a bit to strong yes.

Its just simply that 600ms is very easy for people to react to when they get used to new stuff.

I guess for most people in the long run it will be more the problem that he can chain on missing the bash, Im rather split on the thing if he should be allowed to do that.

Originally posted by Ierr:

Thx, Gaser :)


On Valk and Gryphon "same gimmick": i don't really know what to say. To my mind, you dismantled your own argument - yes, they look the same, but gryphon's mix-up can be accessed more easily, gryphon's mix-up has actual pressure and, frankly, you only need to dodge valk on orange while you have to make a read for gryphon _every_ time. You posted freeze's vid, ok, but he does admit that it is very easy to play gryphon efficiently while it takes certain effort to counter him. That's way too many differencies that call for more tweaks rather than "let's just remove 2 damage" - gryphon puts almost same amount of pressure on every character in the game that features different sizes of HP pool.

I already said all the things that gryphon is better at with his combo finishing mix up and that gryphon in general works better and has a far easier time using his mix up.

I personally just see in gryphon a working version of valks gimmick.

I honestly would love if they actaully buff valks mix up to a working state.

Right now her mix up just doesnt apply pressure do to the fact its a 600ms combo bash, thats why I kinda aginst slowing gryphons combo bash down because I fear he will suffer the same problem.


Dont get me wrong, Im not saying Gryphon is hard to play.

I would almost rate him with the vanguards as easy to learn and to play beginner hero. (espically currently with his broken side dodge attacks and feats)

Originally posted by Ierr:

On damage numbers: i believe you need to compare not damage per hit but damage per combo when it comes to gryphon.
You get to make a read twice - on his combo start and mid-combo (kick, undodgeable light, heavy, nothing into gb or shove). Since we have CCU (and gryphon has that neat bash from neutral among other tools, like wiffed dash light into kick), first read can be challenging and will punish you with 14-32 dmg. I am not sure if it can be called read here since it is purely guessing + luck at this point. Failing mid-combo read can increase overall damage to 40+ HP, it is around 1/3 of avangard's health pool.
If i recall correctly, the idea of damage nerf with CCU was to allow people to survive more hits and adjust their tactics to counter opponent (in other words, to move from guessing to reading instead of dying after making 3-4 mistakes). Well, that doesn't really work with gryphon - the punish for just few mistakes is unreasonably high.

Yes Im currently also not that fine with the dmg numbers now that I take some time to just played him and played aginst him more.

I have to admit, that Im rather terrrible in thinking about dmg number changes.

[T-70 X-Wing]

Can we focus on the more pressing matters than gryphon there are warriors far more broken than him

[Ierr]

Originally posted by T-70 X-Wing:

Can we focus on the more pressing matters than gryphon there are warriors far more broken than him

Any particular reason why this should be done in a topic that has "Gryphon" in its title?..

[T-70 X-Wing]

Originally posted by Ierr:

Originally posted by T-70 X-Wing:

Can we focus on the more pressing matters than gryphon there are warriors far more broken than him

Any particular reason why this should be done in a topic that has "Gryphon" in its title?..

to eliminate a problem you need to deal with the source we get nothing from gryphon nerfs because he is basically a mix of kensei LB JJ and Highlander if gryphon is nerfed so they should be too