Not as deep as it thinks it was.

[LtlMacMcG]

Either a true story about a person with serious emotional and mental issues or a self reflective parable needlessly complex and highly vain.

Though the narrator speaks as though they are trying to understand "Cora", Cora is either a real person who needs serious help or an alter ego. If an Alter ego more time needs to be spent with outward reflection and less with inward reflection.

Sorry, but I loved Stanley Parable....this was not nearly as clever as it likes to think it is.

[Vorlianis]

Doesn't need to be either. People highly theorize that the entire game may be fictional altogether.

It can generally be taken as a warning that we, as an audience sometimes overimpose ourselves on the creators (be it literature, tv series, games, hell even social media "influencers") that we tend to have these silly ignorant views of what we think these people may or may not be like.

Actually it kinda speaks partially against what you did with this post.

[LtlMacMcG]

Originally posted by Vorlianis:

Doesn't need to be either. People highly theorize that the entire game may be fictional altogether.

It can generally be taken as a warning that we, as an audience sometimes overimpose ourselves on the creators (be it literature, tv series, games, hell even social media "influencers") that we tend to have these silly ignorant views of what we think these people may or may not be like.

Actually it kinda speaks partially against what you did with this post.

Actually, I interpret it as opposing your post (seriously)

That is the problem. Something with many meanings ultimately means nothing.

[THE VERY REVEREND MISTER BONK]

There were hints close to the start with those Text Notes. A few of them said "This means nothing". You got trolled.

[ReddishCat]

I interpreted as a lesson about "Author's intent" vs "death of the author". And depression is a story to help teach it, give it perspectives.

Here is a famous quote from the developer after he made The Stanley Parable. which might shed some light about the more nuanced messages from the beginner's guide.

Every time I turned to someone else's opinion of the game, I felt less sure of my own opinion of it. I began to forget why I liked the game. I was losing the thing I had created.

[GiantBullsquid]

Originally posted by LtlMacMcG:

Either a true story about a person with serious emotional and mental issues or a self reflective parable needlessly complex and highly vain.

Cora is either a real person who needs serious help or an alter ego. If an Alter ego more time needs to be spent with outward reflection and less with inward reflection.

It's not a true story at all. It's completely fictional. Davey Wreden, the game's creator, was playing himself, but he chose to fictionalize himself to tell the game's story the way it was. If the game had been true, than Davey would be in a lot of trouble for selling somebody else's work without their permission.

The guy's name is Coda, not Cora. In real life, Coda is an alter ego of Davey, but in the game's world, Coda is a guy who was once an acquaintance of Davey's who cut Davey off for getting too close. The fictional Davey kept disrespecting Coda's boundaries, kept sharing Coda's games with others without Coda's permission, and kept telling everybody online what he thought Coda's problems were just to feel better about himself. Coda's not the one who need serious help, as Davey the Narrator implied. It's Davey the Narrator himself who needs serious help, because he's obsessed with Coda, he's used Coda, and he doesn't know how to break away from Coda.

I admit, it does seem odd for someone to fictionalize themselves into someone that's more unlikable than the person really is, but that's how the real Davey chose to write his narrator. The fictional Davey is kind of like a fusion of Salieri from Amadeus, Bojack Horseman, and a tiny bit of Dorian Gray.

I've heard all the interpretations that claim that The Beginner's Guide is about the dangers of projecting assumptions and interpretations onto somebody else's work, by my interpretation is much simpler. I think it's about obsession, creative envy, insecurity, and denial. The Davey narrator is envious of Coda's creativity, but still likes to put Coda down over creative differences. The Davey narrator is obsessed with Coda, but doesn't realize that his obsession destroyed his relationship with Coda. He's in denial about the bad things he does, and then does it anyway. I think it's more about the fictional Davey coming to terms with his own insecurity and mistakes than it does about Coda's flaws. It's also about how the fictional Davey needs to project his own insecurities onto Coda rather than learning how to deal with himself.

Even though Coda doesn't really exist, I wish he existed, because he sounds like he could be an interesting person in his own right. Coda's maps seem like they are the real Davey's tribute to those rare mapmakers and modders who just were able to develop unique maps and mods seemingly out of the blue. I've seen some impressive modders in my time that created great levels and mods for classic FPS games, and then disappear for unknown reasons.

I can see that this style of storytelling isn't for everybody, but for those who have dealt with some like the fictional Davey, or even someone like Coda, it rings close to home.

[LtlMacMcG]

Originally posted by GiantBullsquid:

Originally posted by LtlMacMcG:

Either a true story about a person with serious emotional and mental issues or a self reflective parable needlessly complex and highly vain.

Cora is either a real person who needs serious help or an alter ego. If an Alter ego more time needs to be spent with outward reflection and less with inward reflection.

It's not a true story at all. It's completely fictional. Davey Wreden, the game's creator, was playing himself, but he chose to fictionalize himself to tell the game's story the way it was. If the game had been true, than Davey would be in a lot of trouble for selling somebody else's work without their permission.

The guy's name is Coda, not Cora. In real life, Coda is an alter ego of Davey, but in the game's world, Coda is a guy who was once an acquaintance of Davey's who cut Davey off for getting too close. The fictional Davey kept disrespecting Coda's boundaries, kept sharing Coda's games with others without Coda's permission, and kept telling everybody online what he thought Coda's problems were just to feel better about himself. Coda's not the one who need serious help, as Davey the Narrator implied. It's Davey the Narrator himself who needs serious help, because he's obsessed with Coda, he's used Coda, and he doesn't know how to break away from Coda.

I admit, it does seem odd for someone to fictionalize themselves into someone that's more unlikable than the person really is, but that's how the real Davey chose to write his narrator. The fictional Davey is kind of like a fusion of Salieri from Amadeus, Bojack Horseman, and a tiny bit of Dorian Gray.

I've heard all the interpretations that claim that The Beginner's Guide is about the dangers of projecting assumptions and interpretations onto somebody else's work, by my interpretation is much simpler. I think it's about obsession, creative envy, insecurity, and denial. The Davey narrator is envious of Coda's creativity, but still likes to put Coda down over creative differences. The Davey narrator is obsessed with Coda, but doesn't realize that his obsession destroyed his relationship with Coda. He's in denial about the bad things he does, and then does it anyway. I think it's more about the fictional Davey coming to terms with his own insecurity and mistakes than it does about Coda's flaws. It's also about how the fictional Davey needs to project his own insecurities onto Coda rather than learning how to deal with himself.

Even though Coda doesn't really exist, I wish he existed, because he sounds like he could be an interesting person in his own right. Coda's maps seem like they are the real Davey's tribute to those rare mapmakers and modders who just were able to develop unique maps and mods seemingly out of the blue. I've seen some impressive modders in my time that created great levels and mods for classic FPS games, and then disappear for unknown reasons.

I can see that this style of storytelling isn't for everybody, but for those who have dealt with some like the fictional Davey, or even someone like Coda, it rings close to home.

Amazing analysis. I am as convinced as one can be that you are right. I only think that , now, after reading your post. *golf clap* (But in serious not making fun of way).

I'll try it again from that perspective and see if strings of mind tie together more this time. I do stand by my original comment. Even if realize this game is some amazing ingenious ♥♥♥♥ ultimately about making a game to help inward reflect, about him inwardly reflecting through self projection in an attempt to analyze himself as just an observer.

He's got a 99.999%/100 introspection and self discovery talent and emotional intelligence. But now it is time for outward reflection which I suspect he's hardly ever done. The more introverted a person, the more inward their thinking. Perhaps releasing this to the public gauge reaction was his 1st true step in the outside word?

Or perhaps his trolling skills are legendary. (I think the former, not latter)

I hope for his own mental health he realizes he's gone as deep as he can go until much more of the world and life experience has been had by him. He is essentially trying to says something with a story about how he has nothing create because it seems he's created "all" and he's hit the narrow tip of funnel.

Gotta squeeze yourself through the funnel and creating more games won't do anything but get you more stuck. . Perhaps figuratively lose some mental weight by speaking with a therapist first (No shame! I see mine once a week and used to have too much more often) and head through the open hole to the other side where now try to understand the meaning of everyone's (except yours) life. The starting rule: Your purpose is known. We are going to assume that you purpose in life is to under why the world *is* Best luck!

[MeanMotherHubbard]

Originally posted by GiantBullsquid:

Originally posted by LtlMacMcG:

Either a true story about a person with serious emotional and mental issues or a self reflective parable needlessly complex and highly vain.

Cora is either a real person who needs serious help or an alter ego. If an Alter ego more time needs to be spent with outward reflection and less with inward reflection.

It's not a true story at all. It's completely fictional. Davey Wreden, the game's creator, was playing himself, but he chose to fictionalize himself to tell the game's story the way it was. If the game had been true, than Davey would be in a lot of trouble for selling somebody else's work without their permission.

The guy's name is Coda, not Cora. In real life, Coda is an alter ego of Davey, but in the game's world, Coda is a guy who was once an acquaintance of Davey's who cut Davey off for getting too close. The fictional Davey kept disrespecting Coda's boundaries, kept sharing Coda's games with others without Coda's permission, and kept telling everybody online what he thought Coda's problems were just to feel better about himself. Coda's not the one who need serious help, as Davey the Narrator implied. It's Davey the Narrator himself who needs serious help, because he's obsessed with Coda, he's used Coda, and he doesn't know how to break away from Coda.

I admit, it does seem odd for someone to fictionalize themselves into someone that's more unlikable than the person really is, but that's how the real Davey chose to write his narrator. The fictional Davey is kind of like a fusion of Salieri from Amadeus, Bojack Horseman, and a tiny bit of Dorian Gray.

I've heard all the interpretations that claim that The Beginner's Guide is about the dangers of projecting assumptions and interpretations onto somebody else's work, by my interpretation is much simpler. I think it's about obsession, creative envy, insecurity, and denial. The Davey narrator is envious of Coda's creativity, but still likes to put Coda down over creative differences. The Davey narrator is obsessed with Coda, but doesn't realize that his obsession destroyed his relationship with Coda. He's in denial about the bad things he does, and then does it anyway. I think it's more about the fictional Davey coming to terms with his own insecurity and mistakes than it does about Coda's flaws. It's also about how the fictional Davey needs to project his own insecurities onto Coda rather than learning how to deal with himself.

Even though Coda doesn't really exist, I wish he existed, because he sounds like he could be an interesting person in his own right. Coda's maps seem like they are the real Davey's tribute to those rare mapmakers and modders who just were able to develop unique maps and mods seemingly out of the blue. I've seen some impressive modders in my time that created great levels and mods for classic FPS games, and then disappear for unknown reasons.

I can see that this style of storytelling isn't for everybody, but for those who have dealt with some like the fictional Davey, or even someone like Coda, it rings close to home.

Excellent analysis. What impacted me most was the exploration of boundaries violated in a dysfunctional/obsessive/parasocial relationship.

[Defective Dopamine Pez Dispenser]

Phrases and terms like, "Trying to be deeper than it is," "pretentious," "pseudo-intellectual," etc. always make me ask:

Why can something not simply stand as earnest artistic expression without making pretense to anything? Where does the assumption that something is "trying" to be one thing or another (and that it fails in achieving that) arise from?

It's especially interesting to me when people say things like this by drawing contrasts to earlier efforts by a creator. In this case, to The Stanley Parable which, while I thoroughly enjoyed it and did find it reasonably thought provoking, wasn't exactly delving into any sort of unworn or revolutionary metatextual ground either. It was just done in an amusing way tonally, whereas this game is more pointed and less satirical in its presentation.

In order for something to be pretentious, it has to be intentionally aspiring to a level of depth that it isn't achieving. To be pseudo-intellectual, it has to set out to portray itself as intellectual while not actually rising to some specified level of rigor or insight. What if the game isn't trying to do any of those things, and is simply telling a story that its author wants to tell?

I also frequently notice some philosophical and even moral friction (read: judgement) taking place between the story's presentation, and the expectations on the part of some members of its audience. Case in point:

Originally posted by LtlMacMcG:

I hope for his own mental health he realizes he's gone as deep as he can go until much more of the world and life experience has been had by him. He is essentially trying to says something with a story about how he has nothing create because it seems he's created "all" and he's hit the narrow tip of funnel.

Gotta squeeze yourself through the funnel and creating more games won't do anything but get you more stuck. . Perhaps figuratively lose some mental weight by speaking with a therapist first (No shame! I see mine once a week and used to have too much more often) and head through the open hole to the other side where now try to understand the meaning of everyone's (except yours) life.

Firstly, why are you so certain that's actually what the author is saying?

Secondly, regarding mental health (a large assumption to make about the author, incidentally,) not everyone achieves those results. Many people lose their battles with mental health, or are refractory enough (or lack access) to treatment that they spin their wheels for a lifetime, or only make incremental progress in fits and starts that can be easily undone under the right circumstances.

That is not a reflection on their quality, character, or choices as a person. (To say otherwise would be extremely ableist.) And it certainly isn't an invalid topic or dynamic to explore in narrative fiction. Which, lest we forget, is what this is: narrative fiction. (No matter how semi or pseudo biographical.)

People are assuming a great deal by inferring that this story has any basis at all in reality whatsoever as pertains to its author. It could simply be that they wanted to explore this dynamic through this particular narrative lens, and nothing more.

For that matter, we can't even assume that they have a specific point or conclusion in mind. Expression through artistic media can exist for its own sake, purely for catharsis, or for a variety of other reasons. Short of an explicit and authoritative declaration from a creator, we have no way of knowing beyond our own interpretive biases.

If, however, the narrative here were a reflection of real struggles on the part of its author, I would argue it's actually far more pretentious and presumptuous - as well as simply judgmental - to appraise the efficacy of their own coping mechanisms, while knowing little to nothing about their true status in real life.

People are very cognitively diverse. Making sweeping prescriptions or assessments about people we don't know, based on hypothetical realities inferred from works of fiction, is probably at best presumptuous. And at worst potentially detrimental.

Which makes this...

Originally posted by MeanMotherHubbard:

What impacted me most was the exploration of boundaries violated in a dysfunctional/obsessive/parasocial relationship.

... ironic, and I 100% concur. That was the most resonant takeaway, intended or not, for me. And rang very true to disturbing dynamics I've witnessed in reality (be they in regards to creators or otherwise.)

[LtlMacMcG]

Originally posted by Aikido:

Phrases and terms like, "Trying to be deeper than it is," "pretentious," "pseudo-intellectual," etc. always make me ask:

Why can something not simply stand as earnest artistic expression without making pretense to anything? Where does the assumption that something is "trying" to be one thing or another (and that it fails in achieving that) arise from?

It's especially interesting to me when people say things like this by drawing contrasts to earlier efforts by a creator. In this case, to The Stanley Parable which, while I thoroughly enjoyed it and did find it reasonably thought provoking, wasn't exactly delving into any sort of unworn or revolutionary metatextual ground either. It was just done in an amusing way tonally, whereas this game is more pointed and less satirical in its presentation.

In order for something to be pretentious, it has to be intentionally aspiring to a level of depth that it isn't achieving. To be pseudo-intellectual, it has to set out to portray itself as intellectual while not actually rising to some specified level of rigor or insight. What if the game isn't trying to do any of those things, and is simply telling a story that its author wants to tell?

I also frequently notice some philosophical and even moral friction (read: judgement) taking place between the story's presentation, and the expectations on the part of some members of its audience. Case in point:

Originally posted by LtlMacMcG:

I hope for his own mental health he realizes he's gone as deep as he can go until much more of the world and life experience has been had by him. He is essentially trying to says something with a story about how he has nothing create because it seems he's created "all" and he's hit the narrow tip of funnel.

Gotta squeeze yourself through the funnel and creating more games won't do anything but get you more stuck. . Perhaps figuratively lose some mental weight by speaking with a therapist first (No shame! I see mine once a week and used to have too much more often) and head through the open hole to the other side where now try to understand the meaning of everyone's (except yours) life.

Firstly, why are you so certain that's actually what the author is saying?

Secondly, regarding mental health (a large assumption to make about the author, incidentally,) not everyone achieves those results. Many people lose their battles with mental health, or are refractory enough (or lack access) to treatment that they spin their wheels for a lifetime, or only make incremental progress in fits and starts that can be easily undone under the right circumstances.

That is not a reflection on their quality, character, or choices as a person. (To say otherwise would be extremely ableist.) And it certainly isn't an invalid topic or dynamic to explore in narrative fiction. Which, lest we forget, is what this is: narrative fiction. (No matter how semi or pseudo biographical.)

People are assuming a great deal by inferring that this story has any basis at all in reality whatsoever as pertains to its author. It could simply be that they wanted to explore this dynamic through this particular narrative lens, and nothing more.

For that matter, we can't even assume that they have a specific point or conclusion in mind. Expression through artistic media can exist for its own sake, purely for catharsis, or for a variety of other reasons. Short of an explicit and authoritative declaration from a creator, we have no way of knowing beyond our own interpretive biases.

If, however, the narrative here were a reflection of real struggles on the part of its author, I would argue it's actually far more pretentious and presumptuous - as well as simply judgmental - to appraise the efficacy of their own coping mechanisms, while knowing little to nothing about their true status in real life.

People are very cognitively diverse. Making sweeping prescriptions or assessments about people we don't know, based on hypothetical realities inferred from works of fiction, is probably at best presumptuous. And at worst potentially detrimental.

Which makes this...

Originally posted by MeanMotherHubbard:

What impacted me most was the exploration of boundaries violated in a dysfunctional/obsessive/parasocial relationship.

... ironic, and I 100% concur. That was the most resonant takeaway, intended or not, for me. And rang very true to disturbing dynamics I've witnessed in reality (be they in regards to creators or otherwise.)

If you read my follow on post in response to someone else I rethought much of what I said and took much back and rephrased the rest.

[Defective Dopamine Pez Dispenser]

Originally posted by LtlMacMcG:

If you read my follow on post in response to someone else I rethought much of what I said and took much back and rephrased the rest.

The portion of your post I quoted was your last post in the thread prior to the above. (Specifically your comments on the hypothetical mental health implications of the narrative.)

[LtlMacMcG]

Originally posted by Aikido:

Originally posted by LtlMacMcG:

If you read my follow on post in response to someone else I rethought much of what I said and took much back and rephrased the rest.

The portion of your post I quoted was your last post in the thread prior to the above. (Specifically your comments on the hypothetical mental health implications of the narrative.)

Ah, ok. WHen I am not so tired I will read and respond sometime tommorow

[SomeKindaBliss]

This is the best thing about these sorts of works: it gets people thinking, talking and debating.

[Horror Pigeon]

I think a possibility is that Coda was TROLLING Davey and it was fun for a while. But he got tired of it and hated seeing Davey's face always returning because he never realized it.

And YOU the player, like Davey, are insufferable to someone irl without realizing it.

[abab9579]

Incredible discussion!!!

[Noah Juan Juno]

Agreed. I'm still irked this guy got me to PAY him to dump out his purse in public. Probably the shortest game review I ever wrote: "Game developer takes my money then whinges."