The "bad end". (spoilers)

[Doomsayer]

So, I decided to side with Vauclair - luckily, I'd brought lucky strike with me, so I only had to kill Eiger & Blitz. Did anyone else feel like the ending was a bit of a cop out, though? You can't kill the dragons, because they're stopping cthulhu from entering the world.

I mean, not actually cthulhu, but that's basically where it goes. I get the logic behind it, but I feel like it was forced in just so that siding with Vauclair wouldn't end positively (because he's meant to be the antagonist).

[Clockwork]

I remember someone pointing out in another thread that, had Vauclair launched his panacea one year later, he could have killed the dragons without dooming the world.

The reason to that was: Dunkelzahn was the one who pushed back the Horrors. He sacrificed himself to destroy the... "astral bridge?" the Blood Mages were building to hasten the arrival of the new tenants (don't ask me why, I don't know).

Since Vauclair killed all the dragons, there was no more Dunkelzahn to make the sacrifice and destroy the bridge.

[Doomsayer]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing a game with the azzies being the main antagonist. I can't get enough of them and their crazy shinanigans, haha.

[Lord Of Dorkness]

It makes sense for the world—the whole reason for Shadowrun dragons being so over-powered being that they're the only natural predetor of those things.

But, yeah, I've never liked the horrors personally.

Every source of power, healing, comfort and war fading (magic that is), isn't that enough reason why the world would have fallen to ruin so many times before the advent of science?

I mean, heck, some creatures like elves are barely undying when magic is ebbed, and many creatures outright aren't sapient without magic.

[fauxpas]

Ok, couple of things; although massive blood magic rituals is what causes the manaspikes that buillt the "astral bridge" the mortal mages carrying them out don't realize what they are doing; blood magic (including the Great Ghost Dance, which was the first blood ritual in the Sixth Age) was taught and encouraged by 1/2 Horror who survived throughoug the 5th Age using the same "loophole" that the immortal elves used. (IF I remember correctly the reason Big A is "evil" is because said 1/2 Horror is in control of that company.)


The dragons themselves are "psuedo horrors" according to their legends of the 2nd Age (or was it the 1st? For whatever reason the mana cycle didn't seem to start until the 3rd Age) and honestly; don't do much better than mortals during the Scourage. (Mortals learnt the mystical wards to create their magical bunkers in the 4th Age from the dragons.); all Dunkie did was delay the arrive of the Horrors, which was hasten by the mana spikes this cycle.


However, with that said; killing the dragons off at any time will doom humanity because the horrors are still coming sooner rather than later and without the dragons the knowledge of the necessary wards are lost.

[Clockwork]

For some reason, I was kind of expecting your intervention. Maybe I feel like you've got far more knowledge on the matter than I do

Originally posted by fauxpas:

However, with that said; killing the dragons off at any time will doom humanity because the horrors are still coming sooner rather than later and without the dragons the knowledge of the necessary wards are lost.

I do remember reading someone saying on another thread that what Big D did was only slowing it down. That ultimately, the Horrors were going to arrive in 3000 or something like that anyway.

[fauxpas]

Originally posted by Clockwork:

For some reason, I was kind of expecting your intervention. Maybe I feel like you've got far more knowledge on the matter than I do :dante:

Originally posted by fauxpas:

However, with that said; killing the dragons off at any time will doom humanity because the horrors are still coming sooner rather than later and without the dragons the knowledge of the necessary wards are lost.

I do remember reading someone saying on another thread that what Big D did was only slowing it down. That ultimately, the Horrors were going to arrive in 3000 or something like that anyway.

I originally got into Shadowrun because of the Horror angle; the fact that the devs are backing away from that storyline makes me sad.


As far as I'm aware canon is that without Big D; the Horrors were due to arrive at any time (the bad ending of Dragonfall has that par right at least), but even with Big D delaying them their arrival is ensured. As for the actual date of the Scourge the "mortals have a thousand years" is according to the timeline of the 4th Age, which isn't valid because of the manaspikes. (Without the Ghost Dance and the other massive blood rituals Mages "might" have enough juice to light a candle, maybe.) ... The Horrors may be slowed down; but the fact that the Bug Spirits are able to survive and thrive means the mana levels are ALMOST high enough to open the floodgates and allow the Scourge, and there isn't anything Big D can do about that. Also, there are undoutably minor Horrors (relatively speaking as a Minor Horror is still a city or nation destroying threat) already walk the world.



Now with that said; honestly, FASA will never unleash the Scourge (maybe as a spinoff) because it'll destroy their game.

[v0]

i dont think end of world in year 3000's something shadowrun epilogues need to mention at all since they only cover couple years after game ends at best.

[Zadok]

Originally posted by Eccentric Song:

I feel like it was forced in just so that siding with Vauclair wouldn't end positively

To sum it up: This assumption is wrong, since that "bad end" is founded upon the official SR canon. HBS just follows and did not design said canon.

[fauxpas]

Originally posted by v0:

i dont think end of world in year 3000's something shadowrun epilogues need to mention at all since they only cover couple years after game ends at best.

True, but according to Shadowrun's "canon" (IF they actually stick to it.) the end of the world is measured in decades at best; not hundreds or thousands of years.

[Dragon]

The bad ending is definitely really stupid and a clear case of the devs trying to moralize to the players.

[Clockwork]

Originally posted by Dragon:

The bad ending is definitely really stupid and a clear case of the devs trying to moralize to the players.

Originally posted by Zadok:

This assumption is wrong, since that "bad end" is founded upon the official SR canon. HBS just follows and did not design said canon.

Although they might have made the bad ending differently, I'm pretty sure Zadok pretty much summarised it.

[cdrive1]

Originally posted by Lord Of Dorkness:

It makes sense for the world—the whole reason for Shadowrun dragons being so over-powered being that they're the only natural predetor of those things.

But, yeah, I've never liked the horrors personally.

Every source of power, healing, comfort and war fading (magic that is), isn't that enough reason why the world would have fallen to ruin so many times before the advent of science?

I mean, heck, some creatures like elves are barely undying when magic is ebbed, and many creatures outright aren't sapient without magic.

Dragons and the Yama kings are the natural predators of the Horrors, the Yama Kings just straight-up eat insect spirits.

Dunkelzan was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ASSASSINATED. Unless I am wrong in that assumption but yeah, its been mentioned that Metahumanity will soon have the ability to kill horrors, by soon though, I mean before the 7th world and that it won't be until like 300 years or something of that nature.

[fauxpas]

Originally posted by cdrive1:

Originally posted by Lord Of Dorkness:

It makes sense for the world—the whole reason for Shadowrun dragons being so over-powered being that they're the only natural predetor of those things.

But, yeah, I've never liked the horrors personally.

Every source of power, healing, comfort and war fading (magic that is), isn't that enough reason why the world would have fallen to ruin so many times before the advent of science?

I mean, heck, some creatures like elves are barely undying when magic is ebbed, and many creatures outright aren't sapient without magic.

Dragons and the Yama kings are the natural predators of the Horrors, the Yama Kings just straight-up eat insect spirits.

Dunkelzan was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ASSASSINATED. Unless I am wrong in that assumption but yeah, its been mentioned that Metahumanity will soon have the ability to kill horrors, by soon though, I mean before the 7th world and that it won't be until like 300 years or something of that nature.

Nope, Big D committed suicide in order to buy humanity a little more time before the coming scourge which WAS preparing to start at any time.


As for humanity being able to "kill" the horrors, meh, read the actual Earthdawn horror splatbook and realize that the critters in there are only the weakest examples of horrorkind because the true horrors already had to leave due to the falling mana levels. ... Also how do you kill a horror that is basically a meme that has the ability to control and twist the souls of anyone who has been exposed to it?


Oh, and fyi, after the Sixth Worlds scourge, the Seventh World will be wiped clean and almost certainly will be forced to start at the early bronze age again just as the Fifth World did.


There is one weapon however that I believe is new for the Sixth World, FAB although metahumans probably wouldn't fare much better in a post FAB world.

[cdrive1]

Thank you for clarification Faux Pas.

[fauxpas]

I always enjoyed the Horror storyline and am more than a little miffed that the current lead dev is trying to sweep it under the rug to make room for the "happy Sixth World" vibe and technomancers with pet AIs.