Darloks and Spying

[CommanderCrain]

Until recently, I haven't used espionage a lot. My current game is with the Darloks, and here are my 2ct :

The positive first: I think it is handled much more interestingly (read: more options, spies have a bit of 'character') than in earlier incarnations of MoO (especially MoO2) where you would just pile up a bunch of spies in a column, have like 3 options and wait for something to happen. BUT

now the negative:
At the moment it is utterly useless in my opinion :( I mean, I am playing as Darloks, the super-spy race, and spying just sucks:
- in early game you don't have any spies
- a bit later, after getting the tech, you have very little spies
- even with the DARLOKS, focusing totally on getting spy tech (I got every spy tech except the artificial consciousness one) and most enemies having even only security level 3 (in my game 40%), you
-- have NO CHANCE for succeeding in a revolt
-- have NO CHANCE for succeeding in a contamination
-- I estimate 20% success chance in Sabotage, Famine
If there is an additional counterspy, you cannot even infiltrate Diplomace etc anymore in 50% of the cases.
Really? I am playing DARLOKS and have researched almost all relevant tech, and still I suck that bad at spying?

I don't know what happens at Security Leve 4+, but I guess spying then is completely useless.
I mean, NGD have built a very nice foundation imo for spying, so here are a few suggestions to make it actually enjoyable.
Don't get me wrong, spying should be hard. But since espionage is the Darlok's only strength (that, plus diplomacy, but I have the impression they have a really bad disposition to other races), they should get a really significant boost - the +20% success rate seems to weak, see above.
For other races, they should only become good at it only if they invest heavily in research.
Here are a few suggestions:

- Give Darloks spy center from the start, so they can pile up spies before first contact
- Give Darloks a higher offensive spy bonus
- GIve Darloks a larger training rate
- Make offensive spy tech way stronger (w.r.t. success rate), *but* always a choice
- Implement mechanisms to decrease spy mission duration, give Darloks a bonus (say -20% duration). This could also be a thing in research tech
- If possible give them XP system
- Add mission to kill counter spy / for counter spies: add mission to kill offensive spies
- Add mission to weaken security on a planet

Those are just some ideas from the top of my head, what do you think?

[rhettrongun]

I have not tried to do too much offensively with spies yet. In my little bit of experience, I've managed to do little beyond simple colony infiltration. Otherwise, it's been caught and killed/deported.

I like the spy center from the start idea for the Darlock. Not too sure about the other bonuses though. Even though I've been caught a lot myself, the AI for a non-darlock race has shown it can be a pain in the neck in that regard.

Without looking at the current outcome numbers, I think the advantage should always go to the counterespionage side all things being equal. That would mean having a spy at a planet, plus having a security structure or 2 built should win out close to 90% of the time when it comes to trying to steal tech or another mission similarly complex.

The other ideas (last 3) are good though. Would definitely make spying more interesting.

[Waratah]

I like your ideas.

It would make the game more interesting. Once you encountered Darloks you would have to destroy them very quickly or else they would spy you to death.

As a reward for destroying the Darlok you would gain their spying technology...which would in turn make you a target to be destroyed by other races.

A little more complexity and strategy in the game would be great.

[The Walkin Dude]

Great idea! Idea's like these would make races and their play style feel unique, which is something I think everyone would appreciate. At the moment it feels like races are seperated by a few stats and ship models nothing else.

[Sylvire]

Darloks doesn't seem to be the menace they used to be. I remember the old games long time ago where I kept whole galaxy at war, revolts all around, factories blowing up. All thanks to spy network who framed the other guy. Made it easy to advance when none bothered the innocent little me.

Spying doesn't really work now for me either. I mostly keep my spies in counter espionage.

[Kahvipannu]

I have had pretty good success with them during my last campaign (hard).

I was stealing like crazy, if you have humans or Psilons in your galaxy, I think both of them get negatives for espionage, you can just do whatever you want. I focused on spy techs too.

They seemed more powerfull in MOO2 tought, or maybe I'm remembering wrong. They were superb in espionage in that game.

The problem is, late game, you have so many spies, they keep getting sent back, you get new ones, re-assigning and assigning them becomes kinda tedious.

Even an option (tickbox) that if your spy gets sent back, it would automatically travel back where it was, and try same thing, would help a ton.

I do like the changes they did to the espionage part of the game tought, just that managing it late game is kinda a hassle, so you propably end up putting as many of them to defence as you can becouse you don't wanna deal with all that hassle.

[Fiveangels]

Have they ever mentioned spies earning experience for successful missions and eventual leveling bonuses?

[Kahvipannu]

I noticed no such thing during my last campaign, if that is the case, it is propably happening under the hood.

[Birdie_Sparrow]

Hints on espionage:

Spies are not meant to be easy. If it was too easy then they would be no fun we found out.

Revolt and Contamination do work but their effects are SO powerful that yes their mission risk is high. But when they do oh boy - Nelly bar the door! Think of real life- you are talking about agitiating a population to the point of rebellion or contaminating enough food to starve out people. That is way different then passing credits to a few key scientists for data, sitting in a hotel room hacking mainframes, or bribing some key unions reps or diplomats to change policy.

A lot of people simply steal tech which seems safe and simple. I will try to exchange tech with a race as you can see by the drop down window what tech they have available to trade - which means you can determine if you even want to steal that tech (ie does Sakkra really need a cloning center?) If they have no tech I really want then I do something else.

If you want espionage to be powerful then you work that track - get the psionics, get the stealth suits, get the advanced center. Basically curtail that Titan track and go for the tech that can cut mission risk, pump out spies faster and protects your colonies while field agents do their work.

I find spies work best as follows (ymmv) - early game they are counter espionage. Once you have a couple of counter techs (DNA scanner, etc) start hitting the field. Flood your primary enemy as fast as you can with spies - I currently have 9 spies against the Meklar with one or two succeeding every few of turns. If they get deported I send them right back into the field. Most people I talk to say spies dont work because they send a couple against this race, a couple against that race, then say spies suck as the do very little against an opponent. Think of them as a fleet - do you attack an enemy with a couple of frigates as well as fighting a two or three front war? Treat spies the same way (and they build a lot faster typically then cruisers on up)

I pick a strategy and keep the bulk of them on that strategy. If I am destabilizing then the bulk of my spies are doing that. I have one that I hop from colony to colony to get basic data on the enemy colonies (if any) to help plan where I am sending follow on spies. Mid- to late game I have 3 spies on counter espionage - one at homeworld, one at my main naval base and one at my main research planet (I cannot afford to have a revolt, sabotage/strike, or curtailed research at any of those locations). The rest are in the field against one opponent.

Everyone seems to use them only for stealing. Grabbing star charts is invaluable for long range planning - especially to find other races and see what lies beyond areas blocked to you. Destabilize I have used to win a diplomatic victory - the top two for GC votes I flooded with spies to destablize to drop their diplomatic standing until I inched up into the GC vote. I FINALLY got a revolt to go off forcing the AI to pull some ships guarding their colony next to mine then I swooped in for a surprise attack against a lightly defended colony. And it is SO much easier to go to war when you have 3 enemy high value poduction planets on strike - losing over 100 production for 10 turns is crippling.

As for some of the questions such as contaminate for Meklar and Silicoid - the Meklar are partially organic having subsumed the race that made them which act as a nueral interface. The Silicoid - maybe the spy seeds Strontium 90 or some other contaminate or uses an advanced tech to shatter or degrade mineral deposits. As an example if mercury comes in contact with aluminum it seriously damages aluminum causing it to corrode very rapidly as the aluminum oxide layer is destroyed - even a couple of drops of mercury spreads molecularly in a significant area of aluminum.

I avoid security level 5 if I can and look for the weak areas in the beginning. Spying- like tech for your ships - is all about one upping as best you can. However, if everywhere is security 5 then so be it. Just remember stealing tech, destabilizing and star charts can occur at any planet so pick a new colony to plant a spy there vs a higer security planet. I will move a spy if I see a better planet as any progress I fully made on the previous planet will still be there when I go back (ie the first and second missions if completed do not "reset")

As for the darloks starting with a spy center- wont happen. They already have a leg up on that count and are one tech away from getting it (only Humans are also one away but they have the disadvantage of -20% security). If you place the production into research on Turn 1 you can have a spy center researched in 9 turns. Then toss everyone into production and the spy center can be built in 9 turns. You get a spy immediately so by Turn 18 you can have one spy ready then they pump out every 10 turns after that. By the time you typically meet a race their should be a few spies in your stable. So it depends on your prioriities.

Spying can be VERY effective if played correctly. I have crippled empires with it - late game vs psilons once I had one of their planets in revolt, and was flip flopping with having planets on strike or hacked.

[merccobb]

The only issue I currently have with spying is that it doesn't scale. You get ten spies total, whether you are playing on a huge galaxy with a 50-planet empire or a tiny map with a couple systems per race. I wouldn't mind seeing them scale a bit more, and also perhaps implement a leveling system so that spies could rank up and become more effective. Right now there is not much of a downside to a spy being killed rather than deported, other than having to wait for the next one to be produced. Since you have to wait for a deported spy to travel back to home base anyways, that is not too big of a burden.

[Davor]

Great post original poster. I loved Darlocks in MOO1 and in MOO2 and 3 I would always play a custom Darlock spy race.

Sadly this MOO Darlocks are so disapointing. I agree they need a more bonus to spies than any other race. I am shocked they don't have a 20% at being more succesful than all the other races. Hopefully this can be fix by the devs or at least by us with mods.

[Birdie_Sparrow]

Originally posted by Davor:

. I am shocked they don't have a 20% at being more succesful than all the other races. Hopefully this can be fix by the devs or at least by us with mods.

They do have a 20%. They start with the Stealthy trait which is -20% to mission risk which means they are 20% more succesful then other races if everything is even.

They also receive a 10% bonus to Security as a trait.

[Davor]

Originally posted by Birdie_Sparrow:

Originally posted by Davor:

. I am shocked they don't have a 20% at being more succesful than all the other races. Hopefully this can be fix by the devs or at least by us with mods.

They do have a 20%. They start with the Stealthy trait which is -20% to mission risk which means they are 20% more succesful then other races if everything is even.

They also receive a 10% bonus to Security as a trait.

Hmm.... thanks for pointing that out. They were not like that in the EA builds. So they changed.

I will try them out and see how it goes then.

:D

[Birdie_Sparrow]

Originally posted by merccobb:

The only issue I currently have with spying is that it doesn't scale. You get ten spies total, whether you are playing on a huge galaxy with a 50-planet empire or a tiny map with a couple systems per race. I wouldn't mind seeing them scale a bit more, and also perhaps implement a leveling system so that spies could rank up and become more effective. Right now there is not much of a downside to a spy being killed rather than deported, other than having to wait for the next one to be produced. Since you have to wait for a deported spy to travel back to home base anyways, that is not too big of a burden.

You can scrap your spy center and the only spy you lose is the one in training. All other spies remain and can go on missions unless killed. Rebuild the spy center on a colony closer to the enemy you are using espionage against to cut down on transport time back and forth. I make sure I have enough creds to do a 1 turn build. Spies will always return to where the last spy center was until a new one is made.

Killing is a huge downside if the enemy kills 2 or 3 spies within a few turns. That seriously degrades your espionage ability. One at a time and infrequently I agree is not a huge deal. But sometimes you get a race that just does an "off with their heads"

Advanced spy center both cuts down on training and allows you more spies.

I will send up the line a request to scale spies.

[Birdie_Sparrow]

Originally posted by Davor:

Originally posted by Birdie_Sparrow:

They do have a 20%. They start with the Stealthy trait which is -20% to mission risk which means they are 20% more succesful then other races if everything is even.

They also receive a 10% bonus to Security as a trait.

Hmm.... thanks for pointing that out. They were not like that in the EA builds. So they changed.

I will try them out and see how it goes then.

:D

No problem!

Early game Darloks are just devastating as spys. Most races in the early game rarely have DNA scanners or spies up. I steal a lot of tech early game since I spend the first 18 turns getting that spy center up and running. This balances out short changing myself in the beginning. Of course once or twice I may have been overwhelmed by aggressive forces early game as I did not have a fleet to defend with... :)

[merccobb]

Advanced spy center claims to allow more spies, but does it really? I am pretty sure I have only ever seen 10 spies at a time (maybe that IS the increased limit?) and then no more seem to get trained.