Espionage and Tech Trading

[merccobb]

It seems that the only techs that you can steal and/or trade with other races are the "Choice" technologies (the ones that Creatives get all of, non-creative have to choose between, and Uncreatives get stuck with). Why is this? For instance, an enemy empire can be far ahead of you in tech, and yet the game will say there is no tech to steal if you have already stolen all of the "Choice" technologies that they have. You will never be able to steal or trade for Terraforming, as an example, or Gaia Transformation, as those are technologies that every race gets from researching.

Is this intended? Seems like a nerf to Darlok, especially, as they cannot rely on Espionage to get some very important Technologies and will need to invest heavily in research to keep pace.

[Oberic]

It's how it is because there is always atleast one technology that you will get when researching, with the extras added on.
In MoO2 ~unless you had Creative~ you only got one tech per research tier (per subject).
So maybe the Darlok were "nerfed" in one small area, but spies are much more useful now than in MoO2.

[Roderick]

Originally posted by Oberic:

but spies are much more useful now than in MoO2.

Uhh... help me if I am wrong, but with upgraded spies you could get a tech each round in MoO 2 until the enemies where naked. Or a ship exploded. I think they have turned that down a lot.

[Oberic]

Originally posted by Roderick:

Originally posted by Oberic:

but spies are much more useful now than in MoO2.

Uhh... help me if I am wrong, but with upgraded spies you could get a tech each round in MoO 2 until the enemies where naked. Or a ship exploded. I think they have turned that down a lot.

Spies were balanced around the idea that more than the Darlok would be using them for offense. That's the big swinging point.

[nakoda]

I find spies tedious for very little payoff overall. By the time they're upgraded enough (granted, I focus on other techs) the items they steal are pointless to me.

[merccobb]

I just find it strange that you can't trade and/or steal "vanilla" techs such as terraforming, you always have to research those for yourself. I understand if it is a balancing decision, but it just seems less immersive to me that you can know an empire has the knowledge of changing a planet's biome, but you can't acquire that knowledge through any means other than researching it yourself.

[Asuzu]

Originally posted by nakoda:

I find spies tedious for very little payoff overall. By the time they're upgraded enough (granted, I focus on other techs) the items they steal are pointless to me.

Yes pretty much that.
I only build the center and bother with spies just for counter-espionage.
Otherwise they are useless.

[Malcolm "Mal" Reynolds]

Am I the only one that finds espionage in this game so tedious yet so easy and streamlined in MoO2? Why is it so clunky now?

[Bhryaen]

The only thing I use espionage for (that is, when not putting them all in counter-espionage roles) is getting a window on all the planets in another empire. Very good for that. Once they've blockaded you at the first system, you only know which systems they control, not how many planets, so the initial espionage at least lets you see the planets off-limits.

Otherwise the training learning curve is so steep and the diplomacy costs so pointless when inevitably caught, I only bother trying to spy when I'm at war with them. And I still fail. Nearly all the spying routes are just for sabotage anyway. You gain nothing except from Steal Tech or Steal Chart, and the more detailed intel from each path is just cosmetic.

MOO is another game where you and your opponents are in inequal positions in exchanges, spying being one example. If you catch one of their spies, you don't automatically call up the diplomacy screen with them and advise them to stop doing it. You can either send back the spy so in a few turns it's in your systems doing the same thing again or you can kill it and get a diplomacy loss (because naturally they have cause to be angry at you for killing the spy that was just trying to foment a strike or revolt or poison your planet. Naturally. I too would be offended if people killed the spies that were implementing widespread ruin on their planets.) But if they catch one of your spies they immediately make it a face-to-face matter and ask you if you're going to be continuing it, putting it all on you. When they kill one of your spies, you can't lower your diplomacy rating with them in order to punish them. You just lump it.

Not to mention that I've never demanded they stop spying to receive a reply of "Oh, OK, sure, sorry bout that." Darloks are always, "This is what we do. *shrug*"

MOO2 spying was much more worth it to engage in and really did work or not depending on how much you'd invested in espionage tech and how little the opponent did.

[TKF]

Would be nice if more techs are tradeable and stealable.

[The Walkin Dude]

I put a post up on the feedback section about some additional options to spying that might add some more depth.

I didn't realise the techs that were stolen weren't the vanilla techs as mentioned above.

I'll add that as another addition to the list.

[martin77]

what?
You can steal only the choice techs?
didnt noticed that till now :(

[thelebk]

A related issue reducing the value of espionage is that no-espionage treaties never seem to expire so you take a big diplo hit forever if you ever agree to stop spying. I will never agree to stop spying against an empire again unless they will declare war as a result.

[nakoda]

I tend to keep my spies on hold/counter-esp UNLESS at war, then I send them out.

Prior to that, I just work on the "Acquire Data" stage for as many planets as I can.

[thelebk]

Here's another irony: While at peace if my spies are caught the Sakkra kill them. Now that we are at war they simply deport them. Hillarious.