Why leaders appear so rarely? (UCP+5X)

[DrakenKin]

Just wondering,

The first leader i found had an increased chance of leaders appearing, and i focused on that until i maxed it at 52%. YET, i just maxed out my leaders (got the 8th one) around turn 250.

So how does the whole mechanic work? Is it triggered by more population, more planets, triggers at fixed turns?

[DrakenKin]

Side question, is there a file i can modify to increase the leader limit?

[vaaish]

It's possible that the leader appearing boost isn't actually working. Sol fixed a bunch of leader bonuses that weren't actually applied in 6.1 but I don't think that one was checked.

Partly the rarity of leaders is a gameplay mechanic. Leaders become less valuable if you have enough to park on every system and fleet. I'd say there's actually too many leaders allowed right now. It's never a choice between keeping one or hiring a different one. The only thing that's keeping them from being silly is that they appear more rarely.

There is a file for the leader limit, I think it's globals, but spud is probably more qualified for that than I am. I do know the max allowed changes with galaxy size now.

[WhatIsSol]

Contained in globals.yaml

- globals: &Backend.Leaders.Leader
    TURNS_TO_FIRST_MIN: 20
    TURNS_TO_FIRST_MAX: 30
    TURNS_TO_NEXT_MIN: 25
    TURNS_TO_NEXT_MAX: 35
    MATCH_MAX_COUNT_MIN: 5
    MATCH_MAX_COUNT_MAX: 10
    MATCH_MAX_STARS_CANCEL_FACTOR: 1
    MATCH_MAX_CIVS_CANCEL_FACTOR: 1
    MATCH_MAX_CIVS_MAX: 14
    MATCH_MAX_STARS_MAX: 120

Leaders are all turned based on appearance.

The max is determined by a rather complicated formula using the number of stars, civilization, etc. It is constrained by the MATCH_MAX_COUNT_MIN and MATCH_MAX_COUNT_MAX

Increased Leader Chance of Appearing just lowers the next turn a leader will appear.

[Sensei]

Originally posted by vaaish:

It's never a choice between keeping one or hiring a different one.

Wait. I think no more leaders appear when you are maxed. So thats why there is never a choice

[vaaish]

I hadn't noticed leaders stopped appearing once maxed. If that's so, it would be nice if leaders would still appear. There's more interest in a choice between leaders than there is simply in can I afford another one and find a place to put them.

[DrakenKin]

Interesting. I always leave 1 spot open in hopes of getting a better leader. Basically always discard the worst leader i have.

I take it from what Sol said that leader appearance chance is not bugged and works properly. It maxes at 52% meaning it goes from getting one leader every 30 turns on average to getting one every 15 turns. It's nice. Reduces RNG if you're looking for a specific one, like empire research, empire security, or empire credits.

In my current game i have 27 planets (16 systems) but only 3 of them have leaders. My max number of leaders is 8. The others 4 i kept can only go on fleets. I feel like getting a little bit more, like max 16 to 20 instead of 10 would be a little bit more fun without being too strong. I am assuming the AI gets the same number of leaders, so it doesn't feel like cheating.

Ty!

[vaaish]

I disagree. 4x games run on scarcity. If resources are tight then choices become more impactful and the game becomes more engaging. Too loose and problems are easy to resolve. Money, for instance. if you can easily gain too much, the mechanics around production fail because you effectively ignore it and the potential loss of a fleet has less impact making you more willing to take chances you wouldn't otherwise take.

The same goes for leaders. Their bonuses can get quite impressive. 50% production increase on all planets in a system. 50% damage increase for ships orbiting. Large bonuses to trade treaties or credit production. Better auto repair than tech offers for your fleets. These things should be very scarce. With what you propose, 20 leaders nets you enough to give one to every system and have slots left over for your main fleets. That's just silly and the impact would be significant. I'd much rather you be limited to 5 leaders and have to really pick who might be useful and where best to put them.

[DrakenKin]

You speak of some interesting bonuses i haven't seen yet in over 120 hours of playtime.

If i go from a limit of 10 to 15, that's an increase of 50%. In my current game the limit is 8 (scaled to size i guess) so i'd be getting 4 more leaders, of which 1 i never use because i keep the slot open. Effectively taking me from 7 leaders to 11. Keep in mind one of them is there to just increase their appearance rate.

It would be nice to see more variety of bonuses from having more leaders. But i haven't decided yet. I think i might leave the setting as it is, and start a bigger galaxy next time to get the full 10 leaders instead of the 8 i am getting on my usual settings.

Either that or finish my current run on hard and start another one with a few more leaders, and increase the difficulty to very hard to compensate. Hard is getting too easy anyways.

PS: The only thing i find a bit too strong in 5X is the ability to trade techs to AIs for all their credit per turn. You can get a lot of credits this way. I compensate a bit by taking the money and giving the AI whatever they ask for, even dangerous stationary defense or weapon techs that would be used against me eventually.

[vaaish]

There's quite a few leader bonus types. It's not the size of the increase it's how it affects the game overall. Remember that every governor affects the whole system, not just the single planet assigned. With one per system, 16 leaders gives you a pretty massive bonus.

Different races will have different leader types. Klackon tend to have lots of production bonuses, alkari tend toward speed and weapons, Darlock have spy bonuses, etc.

[DrakenKin]

16, but half of them will be fleet leaders. So technically only 8 would go to systems. But yes i see what you mean.

Originally posted by vaaish:

Different races will have different leader types. Klackon tend to have lots of production bonuses, alkari tend toward speed and weapons, Darlock have spy bonuses, etc.

Good to know, ty!

It's funny i am nearly at turn 300 with Psilons and i haven't seen a single research leader.

[KR]

Side question - does the number of other races met in a game increase how often leaders appear? I see leaders appear often that are not the same race I'm playing. Which got me wondering about this and security risks.

[Sensei]

Originally posted by KR:

Side question - does the number of other races met in a game increase how often leaders appear? I see leaders appear often that are not the same race I'm playing. Which got me wondering about this and security risks.

i think not, but yes.
they dont appear more often, if you met other races, but you can only get leaders from races you met. so if all leaders available for the races you met are hired somewhere, you can not get new leaders. if you meet a new race, you can get leaders again.

[Ganymede]

So has it been confirmed, that if you have the max number of leaders that no new ones will present themselves for hire? I'm in that spot now and I'd rather not have to choose somebody to fire just for the hope of finding someone better.

Also I can't resist,

Originally posted by vaaish:

It's not the size of the increase it's how it affects the game overall.

That's what she said!

[dtt.scanner]

I was disappointed that Loknar (or a facsimile) didn't appear when I conquered Orion. I had actually dropped 2 skilled Admirals to make room for him (another good leader showed up the round after I dropped the first one), but after defeating the Guardian there is no leader to pick up there. Next time I guess I will know better.