When do energy weapons catch up to missiles?

[Bigfish]

So it's pretty common knowledge that energy weapons suck compared to missiles early game, but when do they catch up? How much accuracy do you need and which weapons are actually strong enough to make the choice meaningful?

[fmalfeas]

Also, enveloping heavy mount fusion beams do horrible things when they hit. And a battle scanner and some kind of computer will make them hit.

[Red Earth]

I have a question about heavy guns and accuracy. I'll use mass drivers as an example.
Mass drivers lose 50% of their accuracy at max range, which is 60. If the mass driver is heavy the range is 90. So does the increased range "stretch" the accuracy loss so it is still 50% at max range, or does it continue at the same rate, making it a 75% loss at max range?
This is an important distinction because I haven't seen a reason to not use heavy mount even if I intend a ship to fight at close range because x2 damage for x1.5 size is a bargain, but if it is taking long odds shots at distant ships it's wasting that extra power.

[frdnwsm]

Red Earth:

I don't have the specific answer to your question right now, but I may be able to check it out.
Meanwhile, there are a lot of things that can affect weapon accuracy. What conditions are you playing under that are giving you that accuracy fall-off?

What targeting computer are you using?
Do you have battle scanner or rangemaster installed?
Using auto-fire in addition to Heavy mount?
Any racial traits ... positive or negative ... that affect weapon accuracy?
What fleet formation do you use?
What target(s) were you firing at?

[fmalfeas]

I seem to remember several Heavy Mount weapons having a noticably longer time between shots. Which led to me building a ship design that uses normal mounts, and speed boosts to close range and simply carve the enemies up. This was a pretty advanced ship, though, mounting 3 omnidirectional Enveloping Plasma Cannons, 5 side mount, 2 front, and 2 rear (so there was never, ever a facing that wasn't under threat from a minimum of 5 guns, and in fact, trying to dart behind it just meant you went through multiple firing arcs.)

[frdnwsm]

I have used a similar design, once I had advanced armor and shields. Close range "brawler" type ship. If I am planning on using that sort of design, I would combine either great pilot or trans dimensional racial traits with augmented engines.

There are so many variables, it's hard to come to a valid overall generalization. As I mentioned, you can make a custon race with +50% Beam weapon accuracy for example. Auto fire reduces accuracy but you crank out more shots. Do you use a defensive fleet formation (circular) or one that improves beam offense? You could even take reduced beam accuracy if you wanted extra trait points, and rely on better computers to offset that.

I also have a question about determing exact weapon accuracy. When I create a blueprint, I get a display of a weapon's range:damage comparison, but nothing about accuracy. I can get an overall weapon accuracy rating from the post combat summary screen, but you folks apparently are getting readings from individual ships during combat itself. My game, for whatever reason, doesn't give me that data. A bug in my game?

[RedMarth]

Originally posted by frdnwsm:

>>"energy weapons are pretty much trash in this game."<<

You do realize that, if you are playing a custom race anyway, you can make a "super alkari" build specifically designed to use beam weapons? You can take +40% beam attack as a trait.

OK, this just modifies existing attack chances, so it's best used with decent targeting computers. After all, +40% of 0 is still 0. But it does mean that you can go full out beam/energy weapon a lot earlier than with another racial build. +40% racial trait added to Optronic computer and battle scanner -> pretty decent weapon accuracy.

I've also got a mod that lets you (and your AI opponents!) actually shoot down MIRVed missiles. Once that bug is squashed, mssiles are no longer so OP. But even if you are playing a vanilla game, using the racial build I mentioned lets you go beam/cannon/energy weapon much sooner.

Would you mind pointing me towards your mod? I'm generally anti-modding, but I'm sick of having my end-game Battleships be destroyed by MIRV'd Merculites, and haven't heard anything about any pending patches...

[frdnwsm]

It's one of Spud's Mods. It fixes a number of little annoying bugs, but isn't quite as radically game changing as his 5x mod.

Note that it also makes your own MIRVed missiles less OP. It doesn't fix everything ... the bit where the warheads spawn directly from the firing ships still persists ... but you can defend against them better.

I don't have time to look for it right now ... I have to run out and meet someone this evening ... but I'll try to locate it when I get back.

[Exoclyps]

This is what you're looking for:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=812726637

[frdnwsm]

Just got back and was going to post that link, but Exoclyps beat me to it. Yes, that's the one.

[RedMarth]

Originally posted by Exoclyps:

This is what you're looking for:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=812726637

Thank you, gentlemen!

[frdnwsm]

Originally posted by ▀▄ Doc Greystone² ▄▀:

Thank you frdnwsm for your precise and detailed answers.

Welcome. Mind you, any statement I make regarding mechanics is what I note and deduce from personal observation, with some information from posts by Devs and other informed players thrown in. I don't know how to read or alter game files to check the actual programming code; someone who can do that would be much more precise in their knowledge, and a better source of such information.

[frdnwsm]

You cannot retreat from battle if you initiate the combat. Only the defender can retreat. If your fleet is being attacked by an AI force, you can work your way to a map edge and try to escape. Generally, you will need to try an access a map edge other than the one right behind you ... that would make it too easy. This way, the enemy will be able to get some shots off as you try to maneuver away. I usually head for the upper right or upper left corners.

If you don't use AI assistance, you need to keep readjusting your movement orders. It is still far better than allowing the clueless AI Admiral to maneuver your ships.

As I understand it, procs indicate that a weapon will strike a target multiple times per each weapon firing, assuming it hits. Usually you see this with lower damage output weapons like Ion cannons, as opposed to something like phasers. There are a few higher damage weapons with procs, like death rays.

Procs and autofiring are two separate things. One is intrinsic to the weapon itself, the other needs to be researched and added to the shp blueprint.

[frdnwsm]

Edge=border.

If you enable the AI Admiral, you have to live with whatever nonsense it decides to do with your ships. If you have full control you are better off, but don't expect your ships to move on their own. And yes, if you aren't using the AI Admiral, ship role specification is meaningless.

I don't think any weapon has 10 procs; the most I can recall offhand is 5. But yes, it mutiplies the damage that gets through the defences (shields, armor). That's why, for game balance, most of those weapons are low damage output per hit. They are best used against opponents with weak shields, so that more damage gets through per hit. Weapons with no procs that do huge damage per hit are preferable vs enemies with heavy shielding.

Somebody made a fairly extensive list of weapon attributes a while back; it's way off in the distant past forum posts by this time. Maybe I'll try to look for it later.

[frdnwsm]

Bilbous and I are having a phiosophical difference of opinion on research. I really don't think it makes much difference in the long run how you go through the tree. A lot depends on playing style. He values certain techs over others. I find them all to have more or less useful items.

I should mention that I am the impatient type, so I usually have advanced tech as my starting level instead of pre-warp. I find trying to navigate the galaxy using nuclear engines excruciatingly slow. Advanced starts you off with colony base, ion drive, automated factory and biospheres already researched. (I have tried playing with pre-warp start, and I end up screaming and pulling my hair out). If you start pre-warp, and are not a lithovore, you end up having to let your 1 pop colony do nothing but grow food until a second pop unit appears, until such time that you do get civil transport and colony base. That's why Spuds recommends going for that tech early on ... IF you start with pre-warp tech level.

Also, you don't absolutely need to have gravity generator to colonize a HG planet. If it's HG and rich or ultra rich, I'll colonize it just to nail it down and make sure nobody else gets it first. The HG will slow your production, but it will be partially compensated by the boost from the high mineral content. You won't realize it's full capability until you do get the generator built, but you also don't have to worry about someone like the Bulrathi stealing it from you.

[frdnwsm]

Found the list: Posted Dec 2016, by Newklear7

Weapon Systems Reference
I wanted a list of weapons so i took notes and here they are in case anyone wants to reference. Seperated into CANNONS, BEAMS, MISSILES, TORPS, BOMBS.
key: cd=cooldown, D=damage, dp=damage procs, ap=armor pen, r=range, TL=tier level, SP=shield piercing, Dmr=damage at weapons max range. Note if a weapon has no damage procs, dp is omitted for that weapon.

CANNONS
LazerCannon - cd6, D5, ap0, r50, TL1, Dmr74%
NeutronBlaster - cd7, D9, ap5, r50, TL2, Dmr51%
MassDriver - cd8, D12, ap10, r50, TL4, SP, Dmr100%
GravitonCannon - cd10, D25, ap30, r50, TL6, Dmr43%
Phasors - cd8, D30, ap20, r50, TL8, Dmr61%
GaussCannon - cd9, D40, ap20, r50?, TL10, SP, Dmr100%
DisruptorCannon - cd12, D90, ap20, r60, TL12, Dmr74%
Mauler Device - cd25, D450, ap15, r20, TL12, Dmr52%

BEAMS
FusionBeam - cd12, D5, dp4, ap10, r55, TL4, Dmr69%
IonPulseBeam - cd13, D12, dp5, ap5, r55, TL7, Dmr78%
PlasmaBeam - cd16, D30, dp5, ap30, r60, TL10, Dmr86%
DeathRay - cd10, D20, dp3, ap20, r90, TL orion, Dmr91%

MISSILES
AntiMissileRockets -cd2, D5, r10 defensive weapon vs warheads only
Nuke - cd18, D20, ap5, r60, TL1, Dmr100%
Merculite - cd16, D25, ap10, r60, TL3, Dmr 100%
Pulson - cd16, D40, ap20, r60, TL6, Dmr100%
Zeon - cd15, D60, ap25, r60, TL10, Dmr100%

TORPS
Proton - cd15, D50, ap15, r70, TL4, Dmr100%
AntiMatter - cd15, D85, ap25, r70, TL8, Dmr100%
Plasma - cd15, D140, ap35, r70, TL10, Dmr100%

SPECIAL
StellarConverter- cd30, D600, dp10, ap0, r100, TL12, Dmr100%
BlackHoleGen - cd40, r35, TL orion
LightningField - cd30, r10, TL9, defensive weapon
Pulsar - cd40, D13, ap0, r40, TL9, Dmr100%
PlasmaWeb - cd30, D5, dp20, r20, TL10, Dmr100%

BOMBS
Nuke - D20, TL1
Fusion - D30, TL4
AntiMatter - D40, TL7
Neutronium - D50, TL11

WEAPON MODIFICATIONS (avail. the next tier after you aquire the weapon):
c=cost in production, s=size, cd=cool down, r=range, D=damage, Acc=accuracy, ap=armor pen, sd=shield damage (not all mods are available for every weapon)

PointDefence c -50%, s -66%, cd x.75%, r x.20%, D x.50, Acc x1.25, defensive wep
ContinuousFire c +50%, s +50%, ap x1.5
AutoFire c +50%, s +50%, Acc 80%, cd x.50
HeavyMount c +100%, s +50%, r150%, D 200%, cd x1.25
Enveloping c +25%, s +25%, sd x1.5