Challenge #77 (Riddle discussion) [SPOILERS!]

[cazychel]

I hope I'm not stepping on anyones toes, but to not drown the main thread in discussions, this seems reasonable.

TAKE HEED: We're speculating about the solutions to the riddles of Challenge # 77 and won't use spoiler tags, because it pretty much defeats the purpose of having a dedicated thread. ;-)

Here are my original thoughts plus a few posted solutions by other people. I will add new thoughts posted here and will try to have an eye on the main thread for hints. Also, be careful: Some of these soilutions may be wrong and not award the medal you're aming for.

One final note: I am fairly certain, the riddles are in the order of the expeditions you have to go to, which is a 1-2-3-4-5 star progression, otherwise it would be too open to interpretation.

() solutions are merely guesses until confirmed or deepened insight becomes available.
[] are mere speculations, that are probably wrong

Now, on to the riddle:


0. What has been taken, must now be returned, 
For the wisdom of Monkey is not stolen but earned

You must now undertake a grand expedition,
Prove yourself to me, that is your true mission,

- 0.1 Probaly just the introduction, but for completeness sake


1. Your first is a chance for you to prepare,
To face my next challenge, that is if you dare,

- 1.1 RE:IS Membership: The first step to becoming an explorer (“chance to prepare”)
- 1.2 Go Celtic Code: In preparation for cracking the rest of the codes. (“to face my next challenge”)


2. For your second, you must find my island kin,
His gift to you, is where you truly begin,

- 2.1 Caribbean, befriend the Giant Ape (“island kin”) and get the Golden Banana (“His gift to you”)
[ - 2.2 Starter island is Saxon Kings (“where you truly begin”), because the banana gives 10 collect.Probably not, because the riddle would be out of order.]
[ - 2.3 Keeper the Monkey can be befriended in AA. It's a 4 star expedition, though.]
[ - 2.4 You get the Voodoo Ritual Book by chasing monkeys on the Emerged Island, it's not a gift, though. And also a 4 star expedition.]


3. Your third goal is this, you must make me laugh,
So prank an old women. And bring me my staff,

- 3.1 Go into the Highlands and defeat the Abbess
- 3.2 Get a staff. Columba's Staff is the most fitting to the legend of the Monkey King, because he has a heavy staff wrapped in gold.
(- 3.3 The Shepard's Staff is a possibility, too, as it is used to guide a group of sheep (like the Monkey King guides you).)
[ - 3.4 Baba Yagas Broom: Probably not, because it's in a 4 star expedition.]
- 3.5 Memphis Desert: Get Seth Maribre's Scepter from the Obelisk encounter (though it does not always spawn). Defeat Sehkmet/Bastet ("prank an old women", specifically "an old" plus the plural "women" could be an important clue).
( - 3.6 His "staff" could be interpreted as his entourage or minions, the "Lewis Chessmen" treasure from Highlands is essentially a King and his (royal) staff. Though the chances of getting it intentionally are low (20%). If Columba's Staff and this are correct answers, they combine to 60% overall, though.)

4. Your fourth? That will test you, but also bring relief,
You will earn my favour if you can prove your belief,

To get this far, you must be both cunning and smart
But this is not the end, just merely the start, (as stated by some, this might actually belong to the fourth hint, rather than the fifth)


- 4.1 Anagogic Archipelago: It will “test“ you with its stupas, it will “bring relief”, when you rescue Bobo, who was missing from the society, and it has a spanking new religion of fun worshiping Bobo (“belief”).
- 4.2 Transylvania: The count will try to seduce one of you crew members (“test”). There are many religios artifacts to find in Transylvania. ("prove your belief").
[ - 4.3 Transylvania (addendum): Twisted as the Monkey King is, this could hint to the rabid beast and it's "Painted Egg" ("prove your belief").]
- 4.4 Emerged Island: You free the spirit of Captain Roche ("bring relief") and can gather some Voodoo artifacts ("belief"). Also this island has monkeys.

Here's a list of treasures that could fit, as well (by azuarc):

Wonoboyo Hoard -- belief = stupas, works off rogue and engineer

Philosopher's Stone -- belief = choice over other boss treasure, cunning and smart refers to Hungarian overall, merely the start is a hint that we go back to a 2-star expedition

Carved Ace -- relief to the swamp creature, many characters don't want to go near him, cunning and smart for tactician and QT checks, ace can be low rather than high

Spirit Scepter -- belief and relief tie to the Alderman story, merely the start of a new day for the people of the Andes, but you also must finish the boss fight non-friendly and therefore exhibit cunning.

Voodoo Ritual Book -- uses monkeys (bonus), belief for religious overtones, relief for bonus supplies, cunning and smart for checks along the way that are not the final roll

Icon [of Nicodemus] /Globus [Cruciger] -- religious overtones, rid Trans of the count (relief), is awarded at the start of the event rather than after the boss

Barked Face -- save the cultist (relief), requires convictions and maybe Symbolism (belief), takes beguiler and engineer (cunning/smart), and causes other things to happen when you receive it.

Zombie Bolt -- relief to the people of trans when it's dead and also makes the fight easier, takes a rogue and engineer IIRC (cunning/smart), and is awarded before the fight.


5. To get this far, you must be both cunning and smart
But this is not the end, just merely the start,

To the top of the world, you must now venture,
For this will lead you to your final adventure,

Because it is there, where your destiny awaits you,
But only that is, if you can solve my last clue,

For we must be united, I and my twin,
Only then will you lift, the curse of the Monkey King.

- 5.1 Go to Shangri La (“top of the world”)
- 5.2 Get the Emperor Monkey (emperor and king like twins), by being devious and collecting mainly study tokens.
- (5.3 Get the Devious Charm depicting a monkey (“twin”))

[azuarc]

Then repost it here in one consolidated location.

In any event, since this thread exists, I'll post my theories for part 4 that I had edited out of my original post in the other thread...


Your fourth? That will test you, but also bring relief,
You will earn my favour if you can prove your belief,

To get this far, you must be both cunning and smart
But this is not the end, just merely the start,


Wonoboyo Hoard -- belief = stupas, works off rogue and engineer
Philosopher's Stone -- belief = choice over other boss treasure, cunning and smart refers to Hungarian overall, merely the start is a hint that we go back to a 2-star expedition
Carved Ace -- relief to the swamp creature, many characters don't want to go near him, cunning and smart for tactician and QT checks, ace can be low rather than high
Spirit Scepter -- belief and relief tie to the Alderman story, merely the start of a new day for the people of the Andes, but you also must finish the boss fight non-friendly and therefore exhibit cunning.
Voodoo Ritual Book -- uses monkeys (bonus), belief for religious overtones, relief for bonus supplies, cunning and smart for checks along the way that are not the final roll
Icon/Globus -- religious overtones, rid Trans of the count (relief), is awarded at the start of the event rather than after the boss
Barked Face -- save the cultist (relief), requires convictions and maybe Symbolism (belief), takes beguiler and engineer (cunning/smart), and causes other things to happen when you receive it.
Zombie Bolt -- relief to the people of trans when it's dead and also makes the fight easier, takes a rogue and engineer IIRC (cunning/smart), and is awarded before the fight.


As Manxome stated, I'm assuming that the stanza following the mention of the fourth also applies to it. "To the top of the world" feels like the actual start of talking about the fifth.

[The BlackVision]

Well, given my answers in the main thread, so worth a look on there for mine.

Main notes: a couple of ambiguitities for using the Emperor Monkey as the answer for 5, though I suspect that wasn't intentional, so I doubt that the answer is actually not the planned one ;)

If it's not though, the only remaining solution I could find for 5 invalidates the Golden Banana as the answer for 2, so... yeah, going with either the Voodoo Ritual book or the Wonoboyo horde as potential answers for 2; which leaves 4 in a position of having to match the remaining expeditions; so I sub in caribbean's Friendship bracelet as a symbolic answer for 4 for lack of a suitible answer within Emerged Island. Of course, you could still run with Anagogic solutions for 4, however.

For 1, I'd argue the earliest option for making any choices about answering the puzzles is the crew selection screen, though other answers are still perfectly valid.

Finally, the most boring/predictable solution I have is 3, though the difficulty in proving the Necromancer as 'old'or being pranked is resolved in my solution too. Seth Maribre's Sceptre is equally valid, and of course, either of the staves in the Highlands - though it should be noted that none of the Treasures require 'pranking an old woman' in themselves - in every case, additional proof would be required to show that this has been achieved.

For the Highlands, sneaking in or using the 'to beat that smug Rivaleux!' might do it, but in every other case, the only solution remaining is a combat 'enrage' skill on the people in question, unless a Devious combat resolution is enough to satisfy.

[The BlackVision]

Oh, and a rather dark supposition, but one worth considering: the Monkey King is a well-known trickster and duplicitous character. It wouldn't be... unknown for him to request the exact opposite of what he really wants, both to tease and opfuscate his intentions and test us, the victims of his curse.

I mention this purely because of the exact use of the word 'twin' within the riddle: it is not an unknown use of the word for a 'twin' to mean an exact opposite: a 'twinning' to exist between an object and it's exact opposite.

in which case, the answers would look more like:

1: The first step and preperation would therefore be the final step, perhaps an image of failure: the losing screen.

2: The opposite of 'island kin' and 'his gift' could be referring to the Raptor Queen capture: neither kith nor kin of the Monkey King, and yet proportionate in both royalty and gender, and presumably not a friendly 'gift' either: the capture of a creature is the opposite of a gift.

3: The opposite of pranking someone could be interpreted as reaching a Friendly solution to an encounter, and an 'old woman' would suggest a 'young man'. the only solution to this I can think of would be the Sword fool, but the Songhai Sword could hardly be said to oppose a staff.

But look a little deeper: the antonym of 'to prank' would be 'to be serious'; and if you take 'staff' to mean, instead of 'a stick' to mean 'my people' as in 'crew', the meaning shifts quite distinctly towards wanting the Explorers to do something specifically serious and towards the purpose of bringing your people together - and the only time I'd consider this to be fulfilled perfectly would be upon informing Rivaleux of the Anti-Explorer actions in Egypt: you are completely serious in intent then despite wanting nothing more than to beat Rivaleux, but it is the only time you and he are even remotely united in purpose and intent - not to mention a very serious situation: he also saves you from being doomed within the pyramid if you have failed to escape yourself.

4: In this case, the first line cancels itself out: opposing the bringing of relief and testing you merely suggests conflict and relief in turn, and there are many objects which could be said to require both. However, the requirement to 'prove your belief' becomes, instead, a scenario in which you must doubt yourself, which I can only see a solution in the Regulus Chalice, which requires both adversity and relief to obtain: the challenge of the Anti-Explorers' Mansion and the escape to safety forfil the requirements, as well as a moment of doubt for the whole party, and only the captain can bring the crew back on point after their doubt at the end.

5: The diametric opposite, not to mention the direct use of 'twin' in this case would suggest that instead of endings, this part requires beginnings. And how far from a King could it be to require the Pipe rock, the least of Treasures, and the furthest from the Emperor Monkey Treasure (or the Yeti!)?

If anyone wants to submit these answers, go for it ;)

[cazychel]

Originally posted by The BlackVision:

*snip* because length

Hehe, nice ideas. I started to think about twisting the puzzle as much as possible, but it made a knot in my brain, so I was quite content with finding regular answers. :-P

Some cliff note from my (knotted) thoughts on that:

1. To "earn wisdom", you have to employ experts, i.e. scientists, because it is their destiny (also referenced in the riddle) to seek knowledge and apply it with wisdom. So, the real crew is Phillippe, Min-Yeong and Earl.

2. To "prove yourself to me [the Monkey King]", you have to be something other than devious, because to him that is second nature. You have to "prove" you can something, you're not used to. So win with honesty and friendliness.

3. "You must undertake a grand expedition [...] that is your true mission." So, it is not enough to simply finish a regular expedition, you have to go everywhere and finish all 12 locations.

4. "I and my twin" references the Philosopher's Stone, as the Monkey King was born from a stone and this is the only stone so directly tied into seeking knowledge. It's is obtained by doubting your preconceptions about scientific knowledge.

;-)

[Der Erloeser]

For we must be united, I and my twin,
Only then will you lift, the curse of the Monkey King.

It's been a while since I last met him, but isn't the Yeti's silhouette exactly the same as that of the Titan Ape?

[The BlackVision]

Originally posted by Der Erloeser:

For we must be united, I and my twin,
Only then will you lift, the curse of the Monkey King.

It's been a while since I last met him, but isn't the Yeti's silhouette exactly the same as that of the Titan Ape?

Pretty much. See my submission pics for the images ;)

[azuarc]

Originally posted by The BlackVision:

It wouldn't be... unknown for him to request the exact opposite of what he really wants, both to tease and opfuscate his intentions and test us, the victims of his curse.

This thought occurred to me as well. If not to deliberately do the opposite, then at least to do something really wonky and unexpected. I had an argument laid out at one point for why the challenge required you to play in marathon mode.

[Manxome]

Anyone can make an impossible riddle. Good riddles are solvable without reading the author's mind.

[The BlackVision]

Alternatively, the person who can find an answer within a riddle given a limited frame and scope and give a reasoned response is lacks limitation, giving an alternative to an absolute, correct answer. Think outside the box.

[Manxome]

I don't see how you can believe that it's an open-ended riddle where every plausible answer is valid (whether intended or not) while also, simultaneously, proposing that the riddle secretly wants the exact opposite of what it asked for. Those seem like fundamentally opposed models to me.

[Welsh Dragon]

The mysteries of the Monkey King's Riddles can now be revealed....

http://steamcommunity.com/app/296970/discussions/0/1368380934239421708/?ctp=6#c1368380934265860447

Scoreboard coming later today.

All the Best,

Welsh Dragon.

[The BlackVision]

I'm just Devious and enjoy toying with options ;)