Is Raid A.I a problem? Killboxes

[jtm_alaska]

One concern of mine before I start buying more DLC is that I'm wondering if A.I are smart enough in raid mechanics. I keep hearing over and over that kill boxes are quite literally the end all be all of eliminating any potential raid threats. Especially if you incorporate traps that abuse A.I.. Is this true? Do raid A.I have tactics to counter Killboxes?

[MadArtillery]

Nah rallying to defend a breach in the wall is like actual action, requiring adaptive behavior and backup plans. Things go wrong, the unexpected happens, stories and memories happen, enemy types actually matter. It's not just the script on repeat indefinitely of, "and all the enemies died in the tube as they have for the past 10 years." It's why I actually like breacher and sapper raids, just wish walls were actually something like an actual delaying tactic. Imagine actually doing something not on autopilot. wild. Wonder if there is a mod to remove standard raids.


Edit: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=864601386&searchtext=remove+raid Think Imma try this out for my next run.

[x]

Originally posted by MadArtillery:

Nah rallying to defend a breach in the wall is like actual action, requiring adaptive behavior and backup plans. Things go wrong, the unexpected happens, stories and memories happen, enemy types actually matter. It's not just the script on repeat indefinitely of, "and all the enemies died in the tube as they have for the past 10 years." It's why I actually like breacher and sapper raids, just wish walls were actually something like an actual delaying tactic. Imagine actually doing something not on autopilot. wild. Wonder if there is a mod to remove standard raids.

Edit: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=864601386&searchtext=remove+raid Think Imma try this out for my next run.

Makes sense, or not. If it's raiders, maybe. If it's tribal raders or savages, maybe not. They would just charge wilfully into the fire until the last one drops. Just like any Soviet combat tactic actually.

[Veylox]

Again, only PVP requires adaptation. Any AI can, and will be, figured out, that's why speedruns exist.

If breaches become the main threat, then people start figuring out the breaching AI more, and come up with the most stable defense. That's just how things go. You're just idolizing it because it's not the current main thing. And by the time the correct defense will be abusing breaching AI you'll be back here telling us all about how previous AI allowed actual stories to happen because it couldn't be cheesed with wonky bed placement or something.

AI can be abused either way, and will create stories either way. Nothing can be done on autopilot currently, so I don't know what you're on about

Whether you like it or not, breaching AI is definitely a "script on repeat indefinitely". That's actually the very definition of AI.

Mods to remove standard raids are what people who don't want to "abuse AI" do like X above us talking about how he doesn't take advantage of game design because he downloaded a truckton of mods allowing him to bypass every threat.

[Veylox]

As it stands, the game would be perfectly fine as long as door interactions with killboxes were fixed, since both the melee and singularity box rely on a weird issue with doors.

Non-singularity / melee killboxes definitely aren't enough to make a colony safe, even against regular raiders. Too much calculations are going on during fights to make sure you won't get overwhelmed, and once the enemy comes in faster than you can take him down, it's a bloodbath, just like in any actual war. The besieged has an advantage, up until some point in the defense is breached.


For it to make sense to switch the game from regular AI to breach raids only, you'd kinda have to allow watchtowers or embrasures to make it believable. Because it's not realistic that in a world where people try to breach walls, no one would build wall defenses. It would have to become castle warfare

[jtm_alaska]

I'm trying the careful Raid mod to modify A.I behavior so they avoid areas where there teammates die. Theoretically once they see there friends die they should try to find alternate routes in or even start breaking walls.

[The Blind One]

AI can be abused either way, and will create stories either way. Nothing can be done on autopilot currently, so I don't know what you're on about

Eventually the player will adapt to the AI's strategy no matter what you program it for, that is certainly true. But at least give us an AI that has SOME intelligence to switch things up even if we can eventually figure out how to dupe it.

If it is a standard raid it's literally autopilot mode if you have a killbox. It's the EXACT same thing when this raid type triggers. Every. Single. Time. I find that there is absolutely no fun in this. It's a temporary pause in your colony's schedule really. That's it. Oh yeah and you get a tonne of human meat and leather for free.

[Veylox]

Originally posted by The Blind One:

Eventually the player will adapt to the AI's strategy no matter what you program it for, that is certainly true. But at least give us an AI that has SOME intelligence to switch things up even if we can eventually figure out how to dupe it.

AI can be abused either way, and will create stories either way. Nothing can be done on autopilot currently, so I don't know what you're on about

If it is a standard raid it's literally autopilot mode if you have a killbox. It's the EXACT same thing when this raid type triggers. Every. Single. Time.

No it's not. I know some people don't like it when I say this, but if difficulty is your issue, turn it up. Most killbox designs eventually crumble in front of raids unless you cheated your way into having overwhelming advantage, through mods, console, or low difficulty. Even singularities WILL fail if you so much as make a wrong decision. Like not falling back fast enough when you start being overwhelmed, or simply not having good economy, too much wealth with not enough quality weaponry production.

There's still a lot of micromanagement going on for the best boxes to work and none of it is automatic.

[Veylox]

If repeating the same thing is your problem, again, it's universal. You have the same exact reaction to every sieges as well (you mortar their mortars), or to bugs (corridor block or fire), or to manhunters (closed doors), or to mechanoid settlements (go out and destroy their building). Any given threat will have a proper answer to it. Mech drops is the one with the most variety, because it drops with randomized defenses that call for different types of reactions. It's good game design with piss poor AI, much more interesting than dreaming about some humanlike AI that would implode any computer if it did exist.

And since the game has a lot of different threats, you get your variety from the variety of them rather than their magical superhuman AI. You don't like chilling in base ? Go out and raid quests / outside settlements, now you get to adapt on the fly, because every layout is randomized.

[The Blind One]

Originally posted by Veylox:

difficulty is your issue, turn it up.

Whats the difference between a raid on 200% threat and 400% threat? The raid has 2x as many pawns to burn through in your killbox, meaning that the raid takes 2x as long before its finally over. But not much else really happens.

Is it really that much more fun to kill 100 enemy raiders instead of just 50? Yeah the killbox MAY break under 100 zerging raiders but that's usually because you didn't exploit the killbox mechanic to the max with conga line separators (aka fences).

Even singularities WILL fail if you so much as make a wrong decision. Like not falling back fast enough when you start being overwhelmed.

Technically anything will eventually fail under enough stress. Yet the killbox is the best and most effective method at maintaining your survivability in the face of endless zerg hordes. The only other tactic that works is the bottleneck. The very nature of difficulty just generating MORE enemies instead of BETTER enemies means the only tactic that is worthy is the one that reduces the 'frontage' that you have to deal with. This means gameplay isn't about smart playstyles but about exploiting the AI into bottleneck situations.

What you end up with is a tower defense game, not a tactical positioning game. If I want to play a tower defense game there's plenty of games that do this way better. Why would you want this in a colony survival game where you can make positioning and clever defenses actually matter? The AI doesn't need to be genius or revolutionary. Just a smidge of intelligence that it actually spices things up.

I'd rather have colony fights between roughly equal numbers of colonists and raiders and have each fight be interesting, unique and fun rather than the so maniest killbox bonanza.

[x]

Originally posted by Veylox:

No it's not. I know some people don't like it when I say this, but if difficulty is your issue, turn it up. Most killbox designs eventually crumble in front of raids unless you cheated your way into having overwhelming advantage, through mods, console, or low difficulty. Even singularities WILL fail if you so much as make a wrong decision. Like not falling back fast enough when you start being overwhelmed, or simply not having good economy, too much wealth with not enough quality weaponry production.

There's still a lot of micromanagement going on and none of it is automatic.

I never feel totally comfortable, even if I'm mostly a "builder" and don't play top difficulty.
I admit to having overwhelming defenses at times (not actual cheating, but maybe it is, as I usually dig a moat around my base with just a tiny entrance with at least 5 doors in line), lots of turrets and cannons (with mods for extra weaponry) strong colonists armed and equipped to the teeth.

And there is never a time when I get the incoming raid warning that I go "it's just another one of those". First thing I do is to assess what they are bringing and sometimes they come with ridiculous force. And if I mess up sending colonists to the mortars ASAP, there's going to be hell (or sometime my mortar guys can't hit anything).
I still get pommelled, they still blown up my turrets and cannons, they still kill people and this one time I was nice and relaxed feeling like a million bucks with a huge strong base and some 60 to 80 armed colonists (can't remember how many exactly). Then came a bunch of mechs and there was no way in hell I could have survived that. A total massacre. It was just mental. Even the computer almost crumbled.

Although it did get me wondering if it would be possible to have a flee option. Just take run away with as many people and resources as possible.

I think the game also takes into account the current strength of our base (be it number of people, number of turrets and guns...) to scale the attacks.

[Veylox]

"Whats the difference between a raid on 200% threat and 400% threat? The raid has 2x as many pawns to burn through in your killbox, meaning that the raid takes 2x as long before its finally over. But not much else really happens."

The difference is that the 400% threat one has a much better chance to overwhelm your chokepoint, considering each enemy will be more durable (mechanoids will come sooner for example) and each of your colonists will be less prepared. I suspect some of you just terraform their entire base from the start because you don't seem to realize that endgame isn't reached on day one. I guarantee that if you go 400% threat you will see a massive difference in difficulty within the first years, because you will improve your defenses at the same rate but raids will be more brutal WAY faster. Killboxes only work if your firepower overwhelms anything that's coming fast enough, and the higher the difficulty, the less likely this will work. Not to mention killboxes aren't even built during the first months, where raids will still ramp up at astronomical speeds depending on difficulty.



"Is it really that much more fun to kill 100 enemy raiders instead of just 50? Yeah the killbox MAY break under 100 zerging raiders but that's usually because you didn't exploit the killbox mechanic to the max with conga line separators (aka fences)."

Yeah no fences definitely won't cut it. Killboxes fail if you don't kill the enemy in firing range before the ones behind him get in. Again, you wouldn't know that's hard to do on a lower difficulty, because you reach your endgame gear before the enemy gets big.



"Technically anything will eventually fail under enough stress. Yet the killbox is the best and most effective method at maintaining your survivability in the face of endless hordes. The only other tactic that works is the bottleneck."

Exactly, you made my point for me ; here's the issue ; there will always be a best and most effective method to anything. Changing values or AI or mechanics will never remove that. It will simply change what the best and most effective method is. It's EXACTLY my point. Switch to breachers as the regular raids, and you still will have a best and most effective method to complain about.



"What you are describing is a tower defense game, not a tactical positioning game."


Rimworld never pretended to be a tactical positioning game, or to steer away from tower defense. Matter of fact, considering it's about building a colony, it's naturally closer to tower defense (you know, defending your base) than whatever "tactical positioning" means to you. I'll repeat what I said ; what you're looking for is to go on caravans, then you'll be on the attacking side, and it won't be tower defense but tactics on the fly.

"If I want to play a tower defense game there's plenty of games that do this way better."

Yeah you kinda conveniently missed the whole colony sim part. But if I want to play with advanced AI I could just go and buy fancy midjourney subscriptions instead, this whole argument is silly.

" Why would you want this in a colony survival game where you can make positioning and clever defenses actually matter?"

Because it's about defending a colony ? Why would you not have a chokepoints when you're the one defending the castle ? Again, I make positioning matter, because I caravan out. If you don't, that's your issue, not mine. I have a base, I play tower defense in it, not "I'll shoot myself in the foot so that the enemy has a better chance". The game already offers plenty of challenges in the form of varied raids

" The AI doesn't need to be genius or revolutionary. Just a smidge of intelligence that it actually spices things up."

You asked why you would play tower defense above when better tower defense exists, but you're fine with smidge of intelligence when better ones exist.

"I'd rather have colony fights between roughly equal numbers of colonists and raiders and have each fight be interesting, unique and fun rather than the so maniest killbox bonanza."

You'd have to shoot yourself in the foot to achieve that, and that's something a lot of people don't like. If I play a colony sim and instead of cleverly putting up defenses against raiders, I have to go out naked in the open field with spoons in hand in order to pretend things are tactical, I'd rather play my best on the highest possible difficulty instead.

Nothing's gonna beat an irregular raid on 500% when it comes to tactics by the way, so if you're looking for tactical challenge it's easy to make the case that you need to go nuts on difficulty, and of course have a box to allow you to survive it long enough to encounter some of the irregular raids.

[Veylox]

Originally posted by x:

Originally posted by Veylox:

No it's not. I know some people don't like it when I say this, but if difficulty is your issue, turn it up. Most killbox designs eventually crumble in front of raids unless you cheated your way into having overwhelming advantage, through mods, console, or low difficulty. Even singularities WILL fail if you so much as make a wrong decision. Like not falling back fast enough when you start being overwhelmed, or simply not having good economy, too much wealth with not enough quality weaponry production.

There's still a lot of micromanagement going on and none of it is automatic.

I never feel totally comfortable, even if I'm mostly a "builder" and don't play top difficulty.
I admit to having overwhelming defenses at times (not actual cheating, but maybe it is, as I usually dig a moat around my base with just a tiny entrance with at least 5 doors in line), lots of turrets and cannons (with mods for extra weaponry) strong colonists armed and equipped to the teeth.

And there is never a time when I get the incoming raid warning that I go "it's just another one of those". First thing I do is to assess what they are bringing and sometimes they come with ridiculous force. And if I mess up sending colonists to the mortars ASAP, there's going to be hell (or sometime my mortar guys can't hit anything).
I still get pommelled, they still blown up my turrets and cannons, they still kill people and this one time I was nice and relaxed feeling like a million bucks with a huge strong base and some 60 to 80 armed colonists (can't remember how many exactly). Then came a bunch of mechs and there was no way in hell I could have survived that. A total massacre. It was just mental. Even the computer almost crumbled.

Although it did get me wondering if it would be possible to have a flee option. Just take run away with as many people and resources as possible.

I think the game also takes into account the current strength of our base (be it number of people, number of turrets and guns...) to scale the attacks.

There is a flee option ; It's not a flee menu or anything, but when the base is done for and some colonists can reach the edge of the map, you can actually try and bring what you can and settle somewhere else

[The Blind One]

Originally posted by Veylox:

I suspect some of you just terraform their entire base from the start because you don't seem to realize that endgame isn't reached on day one.

I play without killboxes and when I speak about vanilla mechanics I don't include my own mods into the discussion, I'm talking about vanilla gameplay which I occassionally start just for fun to see how vanilla plays. I intentionally stay away from cheese mechanics in my games because it is no fun. It boxes you into a single play style which is all about circumventing the zerg. I beat Strive to Survive without killboxes too but by the time I started up the ship engine I was getting raided so often and so much that bottlenecking was often the only way to survive.

I guarantee that if you go 400% threat you will see a massive difference in difficulty within the first years, because you will improve your defenses at the same rate but raids will be more brutal WAY faster.

And how will my defenses end up looking? Oh wait ... that's right. Building a killbox and making my entire base's internal hallway structure be 3 tiles wide with 1 tile entry so I can funnel all enemies into convenient chokepoints and bottlenecks for which the AI has no real answer because all it knows is 'zerg'.

Yeah no fences definitely won't cut it.

It was a joke, as this significantly improves your killbox with this one secret trick Tynan doesn't want you to know about (another joke in case you dont get it), in how if you place fences in your trap corridor they will help space out the enemy raid more giving you that much more time at the end of the killbox tunnel to mow down your enemies because they all walk in a spaced out conga line into it.

if you watch high level play on 500% difficulty. Nearly every single player / streamer is forced to make a trap corridor and pseudo killbox as soon as possible. It's just a gimmick at this point. There's no strategy, no skill, it's just build a trap for which the AI has no answer because it has zero brain.

If I play a colony sim and instead of cleverly putting up defenses against raiders, I have to go out naked in the open field with spoons in hand in order to pretend things are tactical, I'd rather play my best on the highest possible difficulty instead.

You're completely strawmanning every argument I have made, nothing I said is even close to what you pretend my argument is. You're arguing against self-made ghosts. I'm not taking you serious anymore, you're a bad faith actor as far as I'm concerned at this point.

[MadArtillery]

Originally posted by Veylox:

Again, only PVP requires adaptation. Any AI can, and will be, figured out, that's why speedruns exist.

If breaches become the main threat, then people start figuring out the breaching AI more, and come up with the most stable defense. That's just how things go. You're just idolizing it because it's not the current main thing. And by the time the correct defense will be abusing breaching AI you'll be back here telling us all about how previous AI allowed actual stories to happen because it couldn't be cheesed with wonky bed placement or something.

AI can be abused either way, and will create stories either way. Nothing can be done on autopilot currently, so I don't know what you're on about

Whether you like it or not, breaching AI is definitely a "script on repeat indefinitely". That's actually the very definition of AI.

Mods to remove standard raids are what people who don't want to "abuse AI" do like X above us talking about how he doesn't take advantage of game design because he downloaded a truckton of mods allowing him to bypass every threat.

You say this like I'm against abusing ai. Thinking the ai is embarrassingly braindead doesn't mean I don't enjoy exploiting ai in games. Just because it's impossible to make an unexploitable ai doesn't mean we should settle for the absolute bare minimum of completetly and utterly braindead.

[Lord Freedom]

Originally posted by MadArtillery:

Originally posted by Veylox:

Again, only PVP requires adaptation. Any AI can, and will be, figured out, that's why speedruns exist.

If breaches become the main threat, then people start figuring out the breaching AI more, and come up with the most stable defense. That's just how things go. You're just idolizing it because it's not the current main thing. And by the time the correct defense will be abusing breaching AI you'll be back here telling us all about how previous AI allowed actual stories to happen because it couldn't be cheesed with wonky bed placement or something.

AI can be abused either way, and will create stories either way. Nothing can be done on autopilot currently, so I don't know what you're on about

Whether you like it or not, breaching AI is definitely a "script on repeat indefinitely". That's actually the very definition of AI.

Mods to remove standard raids are what people who don't want to "abuse AI" do like X above us talking about how he doesn't take advantage of game design because he downloaded a truckton of mods allowing him to bypass every threat.

You say this like I'm against abusing ai. Thinking the ai is embarrassingly braindead doesn't mean I don't enjoy exploiting ai in games. Just because it's impossible to make an unexploitable ai doesn't mean we should settle for the absolute bare minimum of completetly and utterly braindead.

You really think with all the complaints about performance that we're at the 'absolute bare minimum' with AI?

It may be slightly 'braindead' however it is necessary considering the scale of the simulation on single thread imo.