Unwavering Loyalty

[Zeebob]

I like the lottery of picking through defeated enemies and hoping to get some good colonists out of it, and I can see how UL could screw that up a bit, but I think it works for what it is. I just think that you should still be able to convert a UL captive through more difficult and expensive means.

Like base game could have a hefty price in silver to essentially bribe the pawn, while ideligion could have cultist brainwashing that takes days. Biotech already deals with brain rippers, so maybe some kind of mind scan that removes the UL status but also damages the pawn in some way?

[DaTank]

I don’t see a need for UW loyalty if you can waver it. I feel you either have Unwavering Loyalty and not be converted or you just make some people harder to convert.

Think of it like an Unstoppable force, but you could make it stop a bit if you tried really hard, then it suddenly wouldn’t be an unstoppable force, just a very strong force.

[Seal Enthusiast]

Originally posted by DaTank:

I don’t see a need for UW loyalty if you can waver it. I feel you either have Unwavering Loyalty and not be converted or you just make some people harder to convert.

Think of it like an Unstoppable force, but you could make it stop a bit if you tried really hard, then it suddenly wouldn’t be an unstoppable force, just a very strong force.

But you already can, it's called slavery.

Honestly though, if you're a massive city-sized colony with a host of technological wonders that can solve aging and death itself, grant your people the ability to live in beautiful palaces and give lavish meals and tables to everyone, the concept of absolute loyalty should be just that, a concept.

[DaTank]

Originally posted by Seal Enthusiast:

Originally posted by DaTank:

I don’t see a need for UW loyalty if you can waver it. I feel you either have Unwavering Loyalty and not be converted or you just make some people harder to convert.

Think of it like an Unstoppable force, but you could make it stop a bit if you tried really hard, then it suddenly wouldn’t be an unstoppable force, just a very strong force.

But you already can, it's called slavery.

Honestly though, if you're a massive city-sized colony with a host of technological wonders that can solve aging and death itself, grant your people the ability to live in beautiful palaces and give lavish meals and tables to everyone, the concept of absolute loyalty should be just that, a concept.

You're ignoring the entire meaning behind "unwavering". Having someone as a slave doesn't convert them to you, they refuse to join your colony so you enslave them. Having Unwavering Loyalty but then possess an ability to waver that loyalty is redundant in having that trait. Rename it to something like Steadfast Loyalty then.

[Seal Enthusiast]

Originally posted by DaTank:

You're ignoring the entire meaning behind "unwavering". Why use the word unwavering if you're going to ignore it? Just call it Strong Loyalty. I don't think any of the excuses you gave warrant ignoring the meaning of what it means to have Unwavering Loyalty.

Slavery has nothing to do with unwavering loyalty unless you mean they will forever be a slave because they will not convert.

Let's not play semantics; call it whatever you want, if you offer even a zealot a life of utter luxury vs. the dirt hole they had back home, i'm certain they would drop their zealotry pretty quick.

As for slavery, you stated that there was no way to make them waiver, but slavery is just that, just with more limitations.

[whatamidoing]

Slavery is not them joining your colony. They still hate you and will try to escape or rebel when they see a chance.
There absolutely are people who would rather die than actually join a group they see as evil, no matter what you offer.

[PK_Thunder]

Free kidney, lung and heart.

[Seal Enthusiast]

Originally posted by whatamidoing:

Slavery is not them joining your colony. They still hate you and will try to escape or rebel when they see a chance.
There absolutely are people who would rather die than actually join a group they see as evil, no matter what you offer.

"....no way to make them waiver, but slavery is just that, just with more limitations"

As for the second part, let's agree to disagree, especially since it would be funny for literal cannibals and raiders to see my group as evil, or at least anymore then themselves.

[Astasia]

The entire point of unwavering is to encourage players to use alternate systems like slavery or prisoner selling/harvesting. I don't agree it's a worthwhile or needed system, and I disable it as soon as it bugs me in any playthrough, but making it just "harder to recruit" would defeat the intended purpose. There is a mod that does just that if you want a more gameplay method of bypassing it though.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2885223720

[whatamidoing]

Originally posted by Seal Enthusiast:

Originally posted by whatamidoing:

Slavery is not them joining your colony. They still hate you and will try to escape or rebel when they see a chance.
There absolutely are people who would rather die than actually join a group they see as evil, no matter what you offer.

"....no way to make them waiver, but slavery is just that, just with more limitations"

As for the second part, let's agree to disagree, especially since it would be funny for literal cannibals and raiders to see my group as evil, or at least anymore then themselves.

They're not wavering in their beliefs, you're threatening them to force them to work.
Very, very few people actually think they're evil. Why wouldn't a cannibal raised in that culture think you're the weird ones for not being cannibals or whatnot? They're normal, they're good.
People die for their beliefs all the time, even when given a chance to denounce them. Heck, they already put their lives on the line to your colony with the intention to kill and/or steal, and you can convince a lot of them.

[Seal Enthusiast]

Originally posted by whatamidoing:

They're not wavering in their beliefs, you're threatening them to force them to work.
Very, very few people actually think they're evil. Why wouldn't a cannibal raised in that culture think you're the weird ones for not being cannibals or whatnot? They're normal, they're good.
People die for their beliefs all the time, even when given a chance to denounce them. Heck, they already put their lives on the line to your colony with the intention to kill and/or steal, and you can convince a lot of them.

Fun fact, most cultures that practiced cannibalism did so because they thought it was the worst thing they could do to their enemy, it was seen as evil even by the people that practiced it.
We could continue down this rabbit hole of game realism by bringing up things such as how realistic it is for 80 man-hunting polar bears to assault an extreme desert base, or for 20 eclipses to happen in a single year, or multiple solar flares, etc. Granted, I started it by even bringing up realism briefly, but i'll backtrack and just say that I think it's a game mechanic that could use some adjusting :).

[DaTank]

Originally posted by Seal Enthusiast:

Originally posted by DaTank:

You're ignoring the entire meaning behind "unwavering". Why use the word unwavering if you're going to ignore it? Just call it Strong Loyalty. I don't think any of the excuses you gave warrant ignoring the meaning of what it means to have Unwavering Loyalty.

Slavery has nothing to do with unwavering loyalty unless you mean they will forever be a slave because they will not convert.

Let's not play semantics; call it whatever you want, if you offer even a zealot a life of utter luxury vs. the dirt hole they had back home, i'm certain they would drop their zealotry pretty quick.

As for slavery, you stated that there was no way to make them waiver, but slavery is just that, just with more limitations.

There is a reason why they chose the wording “unwavering loyalty” and not something else, you can say semantics all you want because it doesn’t help your argument. Unwavering loyalty to a different faction doesn’t prevent you from forcing a slave to work for you, it means they absolutely REFUSE to change factions. This individual has no intention of siding with anyone else other than their faction, so they have an unwavering loyalty.

Let’s take an example we can all relate to when it comes to giving one choice or another. You chose a life of luxury or a dirt hole, someone with unwavering loyalty would always choose the dirt hole. What if it was a Jedi vs Sith scenario, do you think a Jedi with unwavering loyalty to the Jedi’s would convert to a sith? Or do you think he’d rather be a prisoner/die? If you think someone would choose to change sides given those options then they do NOT possess unwavering loyalty.

I believe the developer chose the wording of the trait for this very specific reason. Like how acidifiers are meant to destroy all the gear if the pawn dies, or how the persona mechanics work in the game. It is very intentional with its purpose, you may not agree with how it’s handled but I believe the developer chose the word to emphasize the intention of the trait.

[null]

Originally posted by Astasia:

The entire point of unwavering is to encourage players to use alternate systems like slavery or prisoner selling/harvesting. I don't agree it's a worthwhile or needed system, and I disable it as soon as it bugs me in any playthrough, but making it just "harder to recruit" would defeat the intended purpose. There is a mod that does just that if you want a more gameplay method of bypassing it though.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2885223720

I use this mod and I feel dirty every time. Would recommend.

[cheese wheel enthusiast]

Guys. I see your massive argument in the comments. When you see an unwaveringly loyal pawn, think of it like a Karen on Twitter. They will not change their beliefs, even for facts and logic. Also, as a game mechanic I think it's pretty good simply because it encourages players to branch out and try other systems in the game. I feel it partly to make the slavery mechanic more relevant, as what's the point in enslaving a pawn if you can just recruit them? It just takes a little more time and now you won't get slave escapes, so, make a pawn you have to enslave and now it's a viable option. I always go for organ harvesting though.

[Legion]

UW pawns are just fodder for your Sanguophages while you can cherry pick the others who you want to recruit. That's all.

[azxcvbnm321]

I think the developers said they added unwavering loyalty as a way to increase the difficulty of raids by creating high ability pawns without the player being able to benefit from that and snowball from capturing them. It also makes slavery more viable, otherwise there is very little reason to use slavery.

Unwavering loyal pawns are spawned separately from regular ones, so if you turn the option off, you will not get those pawns anyway, just more regular pawns will spawn instead.