Layers

[Kypamop]

Just started playing Dwarf Fortress. These two games are very different, but in terms of base building they got many similar things.
And the main feature that makes DF win so much in terms of building is map layering. Layers are so amazing!
Imagine if RimWorld got layers. Not that many as DF, but at least 5-6: to build 2 floors up (with roof walkable) and 2-3 floors underground. It would boost the experience in so many ways!
I wonder if devs ever thought of adding map layers, and if it is even possible for RimWorld game engine.

[The Blind One]

+2

[Jaasrg]

Way too big of a task to undertake at this point, so your best hope is some wonky mod.

[Veylox]

Yeah, I was hoping for water simulation but these two go hand-in-hand, doubt it'll happen but that would bury dwarf fortress forever

[psychotron666]

I think the best you could do without reworking the entire engine would be to give a tile 3 maps, ground floor, underground, and roof, and have them function as seperate maps the way seperate colonies would, but then have them link together in key spots on the map. Would probably still be a huge undertaking for modders or devs to implement, and probably a lot more resource heavy on computers.

[marcusaddamsson]

I don't know how DF does that layering, but it sounds like a headache. More than once I've thought about 'floors' on Rimworld... but then everytime I get a caravan in combat while my base is under attack... Icky! Seems like I'd be pausing even more to figger out what's up.

[boytype]

Its called Z-Levels.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2888943559&searchtext=z

There is a mod that tries to do it, It has not been updated to 1.4.

BUT the way that the two games are designed is totally different. So while DFs game engine was designed entirely around the concept of Z-Levels and optimized to make them work well, Rimworld never planned to have them and they are generally a disaster for performance or balance when you try to shoe-horn them in.

It would be such a massive engine-scale change to add this, it is probably never really an option for Rimworld. Maybe Rimworld 2!

[The Blind One]

I can only pray that the next DLC will have Z levels since the longer it takes to implement it the less likely it will be.

That said, I think Z levels would be an amazing DLC together with spaceship/stations. Truly to go where dwarf fortress can't go. Into space!

With proper Z levels we could have underground bases and space bases / ships with different decks. That would blow my mind and I think many other players as well.

Z levels is really what could propel Rimworld into the future with interesting new base designs and colony management strategies.

Throw in some interesting siege mechanics and it could radically revolutionize the gameplay.

[Jaasrg]

I don't know about designed, but DF started as a no z-levels game. Entrance on left and you dug into mountain to the right.
Look up "Dwarf Fortress boatmurdered" for quality read.

[Kypamop]

Tbh I think that the only thing that makes it hard to implement so-called Z-levels is AI pathfinding. Somehow DF manages to handle it on 50 layers (for entire world's bases btw, not only player's base), while RimWorld struggles to do it on 1-layered large map.
I think it must be driven by the number of options available for every pawn, and maybe not the best optimisation.
In fact, if you imagine 4-layered map as a 1-layered map divided by undestructable borders into 4 parts with 'teleport' road points (ladders), it would make no big difference for pathfinding, in my opinion.

[boytype]

Originally posted by Kypamop:

In fact, if you imagine 4-layered map as a 1-layered map divided by undestructable borders into 4 parts with 'teleport' road points (ladders), it would make no big difference for pathfinding, in my opinion.

Its not a bad opinion, and conceptually is not bad either. But implementation is not the problem. Lag death and balance are the problems.

By having the 4 layers in your example, you are effectively using a map 4x the size of the original 1 layer map. As anyone who has put some hours into Rimworld has experienced, the bigger your base, the slower the game runs. If you a 4x map size and maybe double or triple size base, you are going to very quickly have overwhelming lag.

Not to mention balance. The travel times to get around a multi-level base would be crazy long without a rewrite of the code. Same with resource balance; there is a set amount of steel, gold, jade, silver, components, etc. on the map spawn (until you get Deep Drilling) based on the map size. If you have 4x map size, and 3/4 of that is solid mountain, you are going to have waaay more of those things that have a chance to spawn when mining.

And about mining. It would dramatically increase the importance of the mining skill, as well as the traits like Undergrounder, Ideologies like Darkness, and genes like Dark Vision.

Then there is the inevitable "Deep Digger Breech Raid" and "Penetrating Drop Raid" mechanics that would be added by the Devs to make sure that raiders can still get at you and you cant just hide underground and never have to fight.

So yeah. It would basically screw map balance, kill performance, require an entire rebalance of everything in the game from movement speed to traits and skill usefulness, and likely result in new even more egregious OP raids being implemented by the Devs.

Sounds like losing all around to me.
I honestly hope that Z-Levels are not added.
But if they do an entire engine rebuild in the future and have the time and resources to rebalance the entire game, it would be a cool feature for RW2.
Just IMO.

[Kypamop]

Originally posted by boytype:

By having the 4 layers in your example, you are effectively using a map 4x the size of the original 1 layer map. As anyone who has put some hours into Rimworld has experienced, the bigger your base, the slower the game runs. If you a 4x map size and maybe double or triple size base, you are going to very quickly have overwhelming lag.

Yes and no.
The most lag comes from AI trying to find best path from point A to point B. When you have limited number of chokepoints from 1 layer to another, it will not be THAT bad in terms of lag as if it will be for just a straight 4x map.
But yes, it will increase lag, so pathfinding needs optimisation in this case, and maybe when you choose to play with layers you should not pick large 'base' maps.

Originally posted by boytype:

Not to mention balance. The travel times to get around a multi-level base would be crazy long without a rewrite of the code. Same with resource balance; there is a set amount of steel, gold, jade, silver, components, etc. on the map spawn (until you get Deep Drilling) based on the map size. If you have 4x map size, and 3/4 of that is solid mountain, you are going to have waaay more of those things that have a chance to spawn when mining.

My point was in adding ability to build up, not only to dig down. In this case you can just build a 2-3-leveled base above ground. Some rebalance in ore needed ofc, but you can also improve gameplay by hiding best ores deep underground and just making some ore spawn points to be spread between underground layers.

Originally posted by boytype:

Then there is the inevitable "Deep Digger Breech Raid" and "Penetrating Drop Raid" mechanics that would be added by the Devs to make sure that raiders can still get at you and you cant just hide underground and never have to fight.

Sounds fun, no? ;)

Originally posted by boytype:

So yeah. It would basically screw map balance, kill performance, require an entire rebalance of everything in the game from movement speed to traits and skill usefulness, and likely result in new even more egregious OP raids being implemented by the Devs.

Depends on how it will be implemented and ability to do decent QA.

[marcusaddamsson]

Keep in mind... that while the map would grow w layers, the overall footprint of any given compound would likely be less... a lot less. Prolly not a quarter, but maybe a third to half. That would be interesting.

Only concern I would have is when you're fighting a battle in two locations at the same time. I find that really unfun. Never played DF, but it seems like layers would make some battles like that.

[Jaasrg]

Assuming normal situation in DF where you dig and build into mountain, would have the enemy approach from one direction only, the entrance to your fort.
Unless you managed to time it just right and dug for "fun" just as something showed up on ground level.

[kaczorski]

Originally posted by boytype:

By having the 4 layers in your example, you are effectively using a map 4x the size of the original 1 layer map. As anyone who has put some hours into Rimworld has experienced, the bigger your base, the slower the game runs. If you a 4x map size and maybe double or triple size base, you are going to very quickly have overwhelming lag.

What if layers going up and one level down would be restricted only to what the player chooses to construct? Meaning, there would be no simulation of entire z-level, just as many additional cells the player decides to add in their multi-story buildings. (Yes, the mountains would be a single level throughout the map, unlike in Z-levels mod where walls are stacked upon walls). Same thing would apply for the first layer of underground, giving more base design options (like a walled off defensive positions on the perimeter, accessible only via tunnels. Or even a simple hole where your fighters can wait, ambushing straggling riders). Anything deeper would work like DeepRim, effectively creating a new map which makes sense, since we're talking about deep mining.

Of course it's just a dream and I think there are same features like world exploration which are MUCH more important and still missing from the base game.