Adding Empathy skill

[Padre Gabrielli]

Sorry in advance for my poor enlish.

i think that colonists shouldn't get all those bad mood influences for things like "slavery" or sort of. We are talking about people that were cought while trying to raid the base, people that were going to kill rape and pillage the base and his inhabitants... and if you sell them everyone gets upset and depressed. That can't work like this, but i think there are some very good solutions, firs one (maybe the easiest?) being adding more traits to the game, and link the reaction to those traits and solely to those: An humanist trait could be added, sided with the pacifist one already there, maybe even others, giving a multiplier each for a bad reaction trigger on prisoners being sold, dying or being harvested.

But the better solution would be adding a totally new "skill", being passive, (called sensitivity? empathy?) related to every single character in the base. For example it could work like a prisoner dying should trigger a bad reaction only with "sensitivity" >12, prisoner sold only with sensitivity >10, prisoner harvested only with sensitivity >8, being the reaction proportional to the empathy value (multyplier). This last solution could be great and greatly improve the game overall. this skill should affect anyone in the game, and be slowly affected by events. Every time someone die, the others get a little more insensitive (it's supposed to be a rough world after all). Every time someone build a bond, he gets more sensitive. The higer the empathy the less it's possible to get in a fight with other colonists and vice versa); A doctor with an high empathy shouldn't be able to perform harvesting, but if he does he shoulden't be affected at all by that action. Being exposed to a slavery base, if you resist the time (meaning you don't go berserk for good and can only be shot or imprisoned to get recruited again with lowest chance), make you more insensitive every time a prisoner dies, get sold or harvested; making this possible to get completely accustomed to those practices. It seems just a perfect and logical solution that could add an awesome gradient to the game. What do you think?

[Zubenelgenubi]

I agree they should become more desensitized after awhile.

[Kenkimaru]

The traits should be more fluent in general, Colonists should be able to gain and lose traits as time goes on and events happen to them.
If a beautiful person gets shot to shredds and barely survives with his or her face blown to bits, having lost limbs and with scars all over the body this person shouldn't be pretty anymore.

And what you said too, maybe make it a kind of experience they gain, the more battles they fight the more hardened they get.
But dont make it objectively good, there should be down sides too, being in a constant state of battle or having many battles over the course of many months with UP and/or DOWN sides not JUST down or up sides with whatever traits they gain or lose over time.
Just my opinion.

[Carefulrogue]

This reminds me very much of DF. Dwarves gettings increasingly desensitized and panicked as comrades, enemies, and animals die around them. Made surviving sieges harder during sallies.

All said and said, I like the idea. It's just a matter of implementation. This would add another factor to influence the moods and minds of colonists, potentially upsetting the precarious balance that my settlers have already. So bad news for those of us that already have to kill huge numbers of morons with pointy sticks.

But, keep the thoughts coming, this has potential.

[Nellvan]

Err no the point was that once they are desentized it gets easier since they don't freak out that easily anymore (if at all)

" Urist doesn't care about anything anymore " as that trait is described in DF. The much coveted goal, which lots of DF players try to force by applying small doses of trauma carefully...

Think Tom Sizemore's character in Black Hawk Down for example. He gets to the point of not taking cover anymore, just walking around while bullets whizz past.

[Honor's Bastion]

Actually, there already is a trait that does what you are describing, just in a more absolute way. Take a look at the psychopath trait. It makes colonists completely immune to social matters, regardless of whether they are positive or negative buffs.

[Padre Gabrielli]

Originally posted by Honor's Bastion:

Actually, there already is a trait that does what you are describing, just in a more absolute way. Take a look at the psychopath trait. It makes colonists completely immune to social matters, regardless of whether they are positive or negative buffs.

i'm totally aware of the psycho trait and how it is used right now to evade the problems i listed above. I feel that being too much insensitive or too much should give both pro and cons on either side of the skill bar, while not getting any around the middle.
That's not only about prisoners, it's about the kind of people you want to play: i don't want to play the good guys, i want to play the bad guys. Sometimes i'd like to play the slaver's den, the bastard's alcove. Some times i'd like to play the organ smugglers... the pirates! Playing a pirate base like this, full of bastards could mean easier relations with other bad factions while enworsening the relations with other factions.

If you think of it, it just make plain sense, and pro and cons of either side of this skill, could be easily imagined. Just to throw some idea, it comes to mind something like this:

Poor empathy:
+no side effects based on people dying around him
+no side effects based on prisoners fate
-more prone to insult other inhabitants and to start a fight
-more generally bored, and more generally intolerant to crowding and living nearby lots of people

Good empathy:
+enjoy crowded situations
+bring joy to surrounding people (causing a chain reaction, like characters causing +x points to the mood of surrounding people, that could be a really good feature to balance the advantages of poorly empathic people)
-may freak out easily if people around him die (even in combat)
-the actual problems: being too suscectible about prisoners treatment

In general i feel that there should be a tendency to become less and less empathic in the game, due being stranded on an harsh environment. Still to balance things out, the game should provide both events pulling characters both sides of the skill bar, making it hard to preserve humanity but not impossible.
examples:
Getting in love, or get a strong friendship bond + empathy
enojying time playing with other people (like pool or chess) + empathy
breaking up, people dying around, seeing people snapping out - empathy

Every idea i write down, brings out another. I really think that this thing should be taken in consideration, and i hope, if not the developers, at least a modder would feel interested by this concept...

[itssirtou]

Its interesting that the debuff for a prisoner dying is more than twice as bad as an unrelated colonist dying.

[SquareDildo]

Not different enough from Social. I'd rather see Social expanded.

[Carefulrogue]

Originally posted by Nellvan:

Err no the point was that once they are desentized it gets easier since they don't freak out that easily anymore (if at all)

" Urist doesn't care about anything anymore " as that trait is described in DF. The much coveted goal, which lots of DF players try to force by applying small doses of trauma carefully...

That was part of the point I tried to make. Seems I fell flat. "Increasingly desensitized, OR panicked." I tried to allude to the sliding scale of dwarves not caring if a gobbo explodes into giblets next to them, to flat out panicking and running from the pile of steam I needed killed two minutes ago. Or that group of random birds that are extremely unlikely to swoop down and attack someone.

Is this clearer?

[CoLS Firestar]

I'd also like to see a bit more desensitization. There's only so many "Oh, my God, a body!" "Oh, my God, a body!" "Oh, my God, a body!" "Oh, my God, a body!" "Oh, my God, a body!"
that seems sensible. Dude, there's 75 dead raiders on our doorstep. Chillax a bit with the individualism?

[Nellvan]

Originally posted by Carefulrogue:

Is this clearer?

Yeah I see what you meant.

A possible reason for excluding this in Rimworld might just be the lower number of people you got. Maybe Tynan deliberatly did not want to have everyone totally numb in no time, since most likely you'll need all hands to deal with the horrible situations.

Whereas in DF you'll probaby have quite a few dwarfs who live and work in the "safe" areas and never witness any really disturbing stuff. So when something gets into those areas or they're forced to go out it's much more of an impact and there's more of a contrast between them and the battle hardened ones.

Bottom line is, I agree there should be a cap of some sorts, or dimishing returns. Tough I've actually not experienced that problem myself so far. I'm still learning the ropes on a rather easy setting, so I haven't had to pay too much attention to those bad moods. Do the "seen a body" toughts actually stack up or is it a fixed value ?

[Eyeless]

Quick someone give me this game! 10/10 begging skills

[Carefulrogue]

Originally posted by Nellvan:

A possible reason for excluding this in Rimworld might just be the lower number of people you got. Maybe Tynan deliberatly did not want to have everyone totally numb in no time, since most likely you'll need all hands to deal with the horrible situations.

Whereas in DF you'll probaby have quite a few dwarfs who live and work in the "safe" areas and never witness any really disturbing stuff. So when something gets into those areas or they're forced to go out it's much more of an impact and there's more of a contrast between them and the battle hardened ones.

Bottom line is, I agree there should be a cap of some sorts, or dimishing returns. Tough I've actually not experienced that problem myself so far. I'm still learning the ropes on a rather easy setting, so I haven't had to pay too much attention to those bad moods. Do the "seen a body" toughts actually stack up or is it a fixed value ?

I'm gonna tackle what you have here paragraph by paragraph.

1) The lower pop in Rimworld throws a wrench in this logic, and you bring up a good point. DF is lenient with the loss of redshirts (sometimes.) The loss of anyone here is usually a big problem. A huge skill investment gone, or a meatshield that could actually fight back. It makes small things, like having a home cut directly from the rock itself, (rough walls have a negative room value/worth/beauty penalty,) a much bigger problem.

2) I never really engaged too deeply in burrowing dwarves inside, which left me with a significant skill void later, when they recieved an unissued death sentence. Usually I just threw the whole fort at siegers, and hoped for the best. But yes, it is a shock for when dwaves exempt from the service see the horror wrought on the battlefield.

3) Some conditions, like "seen a body," or "prisoner died," and I assume "organ harvested from X," do stack. I don't believe it's a direct multiplication, otherwise everyone would then kill eachother soon after killing whomever came out to challenge us, but it can be difficult if not handled. I think the game marks a point when a character sees a body, (for this example A, B, C, etc.) and then say finds B a few ingame minutes later, it has two times to burnoff. The first to disappear would be the timer for A. The second would be for the final burnoff of B. I think. I'm not really sure, as I'm not really sticking to a ligitimate game, atm, so breakpoints are alot lower for my people.

Good luck mate.

[Spiderlord]

What about a parabolic effect from growing desensitized? I once played a war-game where troops moral would increase as they gained more experience, up to a certain point. Past that point, they would start to break down mentally and physically until they would simply disobey orders because they no longer gave a ****.

Something similar could be built into this system - colonists would become less and less influenced by barbaric or brutal acts and situations, but would eventually become more violent, prone to binge, likely to respond to insults with their fists, etc.

Stare too long into the abyss, and the abyss will stare into you.

[CoLS Firestar]

Originally posted by spiderlord:

What about a parabolic effect from growing desensitized? I once played a war-game where troops moral would increase as they gained more experience, up to a certain point. Past that point, they would start to break down mentally and physically until they would simply disobey orders because they no longer gave a ****.

Something similar could be built into this system - colonists would become less and less influenced by barbaric or brutal acts and situations, but would eventually become more violent, prone to binge, likely to respond to insults with their fists, etc.

Stare too long into the abyss, and the abyss will stare into you.

Dude.... yes please.