Animal Personhood / vegetarianism is confusing

[schnappkatze]

While I love the inclusion of Animal Personhood as a belief, it feels a bit confusing and not properly tested.

Part 1: What counts as "meat" to trigger the debuff from the precept?

I currently have 3 crashlanders with the belief Animal Personhood and Meat Eating set to abhorrent. For playtesting I started with milk and unfert. eggs.
When they drink milk / eat a meal cooked with milk, they don't get the "ate meat" debuff.
When they eat unfert. chicken eggs (either raw or in a meal), they do get the "I ate meat debuff"

The game clearly states in the description: Eating meat is evil. Not Eating any animal product is evil. Also, the game clearly puts meat and other animal products in different categories in cooking, namely: Meat, Vegetarian, Animal products.

Since eggs are listed as animal products and not meat, they should not give the "I ate meat debuff". On the other hand, since milk eating /drinking doesn't give the debuff, this might just be a bug.

So either the description of Meat eating - precept is wrong or the eating of eggs is bugged.

For Part 2 I assume that eggs are bugged and milk and eggs are ok to eat for believers in the "no meat" precept.

Part 2: Vegetarian or vegan meals

In real life, vegetarian usually means ovo-lacto-vegetarian (so no meat but milk and eggs are ok) and vegan means no animal products at all. The actual book definition of vegetarian rather matches with vegan ("just plants"), but in common language vegetarian = milk and eggs are allowed, vegan = no animal stuff at all.

In the cooking bill section of the game you now have the option to cook vegetarian meals, which is fine, but it goes by the mentioned book definition, so only plant or mushrooms are allowed. While technically correct, this is a little confusing since most people would assume vegetarian = milk and eggs are allowed.

This alone is not an issue, but it gets confusing for whom the vegetarian meals are meant for. If the Animal Personhood believers are allowed to eat milk and eggs (as the description of the precepts imply), then why have an extra option in the cooking bill for meals without animal products at all? For whom is this extra plants-only bill in the stove, if the Animal Personhood believers are cool with milk and eggs? Wouldn’t it make more sense to have a meal option just without meat, if the meal restriction is just about the meat?

Sorry for the long text. tl/dr:

1. Either the description of the meat eating precept is wrong or the outplay in the game is buggy. Eggs are not meat but give the "I ate meat" debuff.

2. The option for "vegetarian" meals is confusing, because what it us doing does not match with what the meal eating precept is about. It disallows meat and animal products, but the precept only forbids meat, so why not allow milk and eggs?

Did anyone of you who played around with this have a different experience? Am I just missing something? This issue kind of ruined my vegetarian colony that wanted to rely on eggs.

To be clear: I am fine with whatever way it is designed, I just would like it to be consistent.

[Zalzany]

Ok one you need to report eggs as a bug on official forums.

Two almost all vegetarians I met will not eat eggs. Milk yes, butter sure, eggs no. Where is this common defination that says vegetarians can eat eggs? I known a ton who refused to eat eggs. Is this where they say they can eat fish? I seen some really fake vegetarians claim fish is ok, its like what no that is meat still...

Like legit vegitarians I know they can't handle eggs or broth they get sick if you give them products with those things in it

Oh and its not vegan as you said milk is ok...

[schnappkatze]

I already reported the eggs, but when I found out about the vegan cooking options that seems to serve no one, I wanted to check if I got the whole thing wrong.

Vegetarianism usually means "eats no meat" as in "doesn't eat dead animals". In my day to day live in my country it is very common that vegetarian means no meat and vegan means no animal products at all. As I explained, strictly by the sense of the word, vegetarianism would mean vegan, which fits with the wikipedia article:

Vegetarianism is the practice of abstaining from the consumption of meat (red meat, poultry, seafood, and the flesh of any other animal), and may also include abstention from by-products of animal slaughter.

[Tux]

Originally posted by Zalzany:

Ok one you need to report eggs as a bug on official forums.

Two almost all vegetarians I met will not eat eggs. .

my understanding is that qualifies as vegan but regardless, its a game, we should not get lost in trying to worry if everything correlates to reality or not
but the game should be specific in its descriptions which I take it to be, thus, if it aint red or made from red, I am eating it

[schnappkatze]

Yeah, that's my reasoning: The game doesn't has to be realistic, but consistent.

"my understanding is that qualifies as vegan but regardless"

Nope, vegan = not eating animal products at all. Not eating meat but drinking milk is vegetarianism :)

[Donathan Cheadledge]

egg machine broke, I assume.

Interesting about the vegetarian meals options though - would be quite fun if they differentiated between ovo-lacto and vegan in those options.

[Astasia]

An egg is an animal embryo, eating one requires killing an animal or preventing one from being born by stopping the fertilization process. Anyone who has a legitimate problem with harming animals is probably going to have a problem with eating eggs, that just seems like common sense to me. Most vegetarians don't eat meat because they think they are helping the environment or think it's healthier for them, which is why they make exceptions about things like fish or eggs. The precept in game is all about loving animals and not wanting to hurt them.

[ZS Maeklos]

That's actually not true. Eggs don't need to be fertilized to be laid. I own 18 laying hens and no rooster - none of the eggs they lay are fertilized or could ever produce an animal.

In this way, eggs are exactly the same as milk: a product of an animal, nothing more.

[Astasia]

Originally posted by ZS Maeklos:

That's actually not true. Eggs don't need to be fertilized to be laid. I own 18 laying hens and no rooster - none of the eggs they lay are fertilized or could ever produce an animal.

In this way, eggs are exactly the same as milk: a product of an animal, nothing more.

Originally posted by Astasia:

or preventing one from being born by stopping the fertilization process.

IE removing the male. If there was a male chicken the egg would be fertilized and become a new chicken.

In any case, ideological reasoning aside, eggs are made up of basically the same stuff as meat (protein, cholesterol, etc.) and are officially classified as "Meat" by the United States Department of Agriculture, as far as human diet is concerned.

[Meowtown]

Milk is baby food, eggs are the baby. In a society that truly respects animals rights they would promote the fertilization of those eggs and not use them for their own consumption. What gives you the right to segregate them by sex? Milk is a byproduct of a natural process of birth, unfertilized eggs are the byproduct of your interference with the natural process of birth. Gaining from the prevention of animal life would be against the morals of their society.

Drinking milk is nothing like eating something that could have been alive.

[ZS Maeklos]

Originally posted by Astasia:

Originally posted by Astasia:

or preventing one from being born by stopping the fertilization process.

IE removing the male. If there was a male chicken the egg would be fertilized and become a new chicken.

And if a human egg was fertilized, it'd make a person - ergo, every menstrual cycle that doesn't result in a fertilized egg and baby born is manslaughter at best, homicide at worst.

I can play silly 'what if' games, too.

Also, directly from the USDA web site: "Meat is defined as the flesh of animals (including fishes and birds) used as food, that can be part of a healthful diet. Meat is a major source of key nutrients, such as high-quality protein, iron, and B vitamins for many Americans."

For reference: https://ask.usda.gov/s/article/What-is-meat

[Astasia]

Originally posted by ZS Maeklos:

And if a human egg was fertilized, it'd make a person - ergo, every menstrual cycle that doesn't result in a fertilized egg and baby born is manslaughter at best, homicide at worst.

If the game had human pregnancy that would be a pretty good precept option, and make about as much sense as most of them.

Originally posted by ZS Maeklos:

Also, directly from the USDA web site: "Meat is defined as the flesh of animals (including fishes and birds) used as food, that can be part of a healthful diet. Meat is a major source of key nutrients, such as high-quality protein, iron, and B vitamins for many Americans."

For reference: https://ask.usda.gov/s/article/What-is-meat

"Due to their protein content, the United States Department of Agriculture formerly categorized eggs as Meats within the Food Guide Pyramid (now MyPlate)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_as_food

[ZS Maeklos]

Originally posted by Astasia:

"Due to their protein content, the United States Department of Agriculture formerly categorized eggs as Meats within the Food Guide Pyramid (now MyPlate)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_as_food

Just pointing out the word 'formerly' in there, as well as categorizing them as Meats within the food pyramid... not actually categorizing them as meats. :P Under the food pyramid, they also categorized nuts, milk, cheese, and beans in with meats, fish, and eggs. Or, depending on some pyramids, had milk, cheese, and yogurt on the same 'tier' but a separate category, then meat, fish, eggs, beans, and nuts in the same category.

That's one of the reasons why we don't use it anymore.

Further edit: In the food pyramid, items were grouped by nutritional value, not by what they actually were.

[Astasia]

Ya, the USDA "MyPyramid" had a category just called "Meat and Beans" and eggs were considered "Meat" under that classification (Milk and Cheese were a different group). It was a simplification, obviously they are distinct, but eggs are essentially meat. It's the building materials for an entire animal crammed into a shell, it's like a meat slurry without the rigid structure holding it together.

[ZS Maeklos]

In which case, vegetarians wouldn't be able to eat beans or nuts because those are grouped in the Meat category, too. :P

As fun as this debate is, it just underlines the need for both a vegetarian as well as a vegan option for meals.

[ichifish]

Originally posted by schnappkatze:

1. Either the description of the meat eating precept is wrong or the outplay in the game is buggy. Eggs are not meat but give the "I ate meat" debuff.

2. The option for "vegetarian" meals is confusing, because what it us doing does not match with what the meal eating precept is about. It disallows meat and animal products, but the precept only forbids meat, so why not allow milk and eggs?

Did anyone of you who played around with this have a different experience? Am I just missing something? This issue kind of ruined my vegetarian colony that wanted to rely on eggs.

To be clear: I am fine with whatever way it is designed, I just would like it to be consistent.

1. Agree. The strictness of a vegan diet aligns with animal personhood and Ludeon could make it "no meat or animal products" to make it simple and thematic. Conversely, making all vegetarian references ovo-lacto-vegetarian would across the board would also simplify it.

2. Yes, vegetarian meals should be labeled vegan or just "vegetable" (some people may be unfamiliar with the term vegan).

The issue highlights a common problem with Rimworld that is heightened in Ideology: lack of clear communication. Unlike in the vanilla game, where the only permanent long-term decision you make is tribal vs. non-tribal, ideology asks you to make decisions that can significantly change your available options, without clearly presenting the ramifications (e.g. does animal personhood mean vegan and does vegan mean no pemmican or psms?).

This is a really different style of play to "take a handful of random pawns and try to make it work" and requires clearer communication than Ludeon seems accustomed to. This is the same problem as the numerous "but but balance" threads in which players expect that the memes should have a balance of positive and negative effects. Given the lack of clarity in the explanations this is an understandable expectation to have about long-term decisions made early in a game that could easily last 50 hours.

Also, a couple of minutes spent on the "meals" page of the wiki could have cleared this up.

SIDENOTE: Guys, arguing about what is or isn't considered vegetarian irl doesn't help the community (or the developer, if they ever read this) understand the problem better. You might as well be formulating theories as to why people can build spaceships but not lighters, carry an entire elephant carcass but not two different kinds of meals, or construct a wind turbine in less time than it takes to walk a kilometer.