The Core Problems with Ideology

[Satori]

Hey all, I've played RimWorld Ideology and come across what I feel are the core issues. Here are my observations and suggestions to fix them:

1. The Ideologies aren't balanced in any way, shape or form and there's no clear label on which ones are OP or insanely difficult.

I wanted to play around with Dryads so I created a hardcore tree worshipping hippy colony. Worst experience of my life. I didn't appreciate how much of a nightmare RimWorld is being unable to chop down trees until this moment. Gave up within 6 hours.

I then tried another ideology, Transhumanism. Seemed cool at first, I liked the new object skins etc. But it ended up playing exactly like old RimWorld and felt stale. Nothing new. Started getting "what's-the-pointitis" in about 15 hours of play. It was hilariously easy compared to my previous Ideology and there was no distinction why. They were both labelled "strong" ideologies but one was way more playable than the other.

2. Where's the C in DLC?

I went into this DLC excited for all the new things I'd see. Royalty had added a decent amount of cool stuff so I assumed this would be similar.

I assumed that you could worship "actual" gods, like Cthulhu or something, and if you pleased them enough they would give your colony boons or even eventually appear to help you in times of need.

I assumed there would either be a new bench for "holy weapons and armor" that look unique, or at least a bunch of cool new weapons and creatures. Nope on both counts.

Instead, you get a heap of mood modifiers... Yay? Mood modifiers are the most boring and lame element you could focus on in a DLC besides grass redesign.

3. Too many sticks, not enough carrots

Then, to top it all off, effectively all this DLC does is make the game more obnoxious to play. Want to capture a pawn? Oh, he's a different ideology than you, and within 7 days he's a rival of everyone in your camp and starting social fights everywhere.

Heaven help you if you get 3+ or so different ideology pawns in a short time span, which happened to me. Your whole colony goes insane. Mood debuffs everywhere from constantly fighting over religion.

Many of the bonuses you get from Ideologies are "win more". By the time you get them, your colony is often largely stable and they don't matter a ton anyway. For example day long production or research boosts.

Meanwhile the negatives you have can often cripple you from the start of the game. Some of them render the game nigh-unplayable. (Stares at tree worshippers)

TLDR: Game has 3 core issues: Balance, lack of fun, cool new content based around ideologies and a heavy handed system which punishes you way more than it rewards you.

[Spookbuster]

The game's so-called "fans" seem rather insistent on harassing anyone who is not themselves slavishly uncritical of the game. Reminds me of Rick and Morty fans torpedoing that show over nugget sauce.

[FearlessJoee]

Every thread like this is the same. "X Ideology type doesnt agree with my playstyle/creative opinion. Thus the DLC is garbage. I will stick to my mods that I selectively chose tailored to my liking."
There are tons of mods on the workshop that I personally dont like, that doesnt make them garbage. The same rules apply for the DLC. If it doesnt support the way you play, dont buy it. (Also read into it more before making assumptions, i.e. calling upon gods to protect your colony)

[MortVent]

Originally posted by FearlessJoee:

Every thread like this is the same. "X Ideology type doesnt agree with my playstyle/creative opinion. Thus the DLC is garbage. I will stick to my mods that I selectively chose tailored to my liking."
There are tons of mods on the workshop that I personally dont like, that doesnt make them garbage. The same rules apply for the DLC. If it doesnt support the way you play, dont buy it. (Also read into it more before making assumptions, i.e. calling upon gods to protect your colony)

Course many of the mods are still broken for 1.3 or had changes made that cause issues with others... seen a couple that tried to overwrite key things causing lockups so wound up trimming mine down for a bit till the mod authors find the time to update them all. Of course since they are hobbyist that could be a long time for some, if they are even interested in dealing with the community.

[maniacal<1>]

And Gods help you if you go Transhumanist...I barely learned how to harness solar energy for electricity, and my colonists already want these huge, expansive medical beds and procedures do de-age them or 'recharge' them.

It was also fun trying to build a colony using no wood, so my naturist colonists wouldn't pitch a fit over cutting down trees.

From what I can tell, all Ideology does is add debuffs and time-sinks, and I want zero part of any of that. It was fun initially, the idea of religious weapons and items or specific roles for your people, but their demands for those roles make them almost as hard to please as nobility.

I dunno, I guess what I consider fun in Rimworld is different than what others do. Adding layers of boxes to check before you get to DO anything isn't what I look forward to when I plop down after work.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Spookbuster:

The game's so-called "fans" seem rather insistent on harassing anyone who is not themselves slavishly uncritical of the game. Reminds me of Rick and Morty fans torpedoing that show over nugget sauce.

I find it pretty hilarious that your frame of reference is a cartoon.

Next you will be comparing everything to that time when something happened on an episode of iCarly.

[Brucejuh]

Originally posted by maniacal<1>:

And Gods help you if you go Transhumanist...I barely learned how to harness solar energy for electricity, and my colonists already want these huge, expansive medical beds and procedures do de-age them or 'recharge' them.

It was also fun trying to build a colony using no wood, so my naturist colonists wouldn't pitch a fit over cutting down trees.

From what I can tell, all Ideology does is add debuffs and time-sinks, and I want zero part of any of that. It was fun initially, the idea of religious weapons and items or specific roles for your people, but their demands for those roles make them almost as hard to please as nobility.

I dunno, I guess what I consider fun in Rimworld is different than what others do. Adding layers of boxes to check before you get to DO anything isn't what I look forward to when I plop down after work.

1. do-age is litterally 1 device that you get from start. You fill it up with food and a pawn goes in it for 5 days.
2. You build with wood?... i always use slate/marbe blocks.
3. Only the research role makes your pawn useless for other jobs, but in return you get a research buff which basically makes you a research god (if your pawn has 10+ int).

The only thing i did notice is that the transhumanist ideology tends to get a bit boring (in the needs/demands and the looks of the tiles you can build).
I think ill go for a run with slavers or the one you can make prisoners fight in the gladiator pit.

[ZS Maeklos]

Originally posted by Brucejuh:

The only thing i did notice is that the transhumanist ideology tends to get a bit boring (in the needs/demands and the looks of the tiles you can build).
I think ill go for a run with slavers or the one you can make prisoners fight in the gladiator pit.

What if you combined transhumanist with something else - maybe the Blindness meme? A bunch of blind, techno-sages that need to rely on turrets to defend themselves. Or, if you're using the VE: Mechanoids mod, construct mechs to defend themselves.

You could also spin it with Cannibalism and use the mod (EPOE, I think it's called?) that lets you clone pawns. Now you've got an advanced civilization that grow their own 'food'.

[Supahz]

Originally posted by maniacal<1>:

I dunno, I guess what I consider fun in Rimworld is different than what others do. Adding layers of boxes to check before you get to DO anything isn't what I look forward to when I plop down after work.

You and me both. I've been playing for years, and neither expansion has interested me. Not hating on them, and I'm glad for everyone who enjoys the DLC, but everything I've read makes it sound like headaches that I'd rather avoid and wouldn't enjoy. You're not alone.

[Markus Reese]

Originally posted by maniacal<1>:

And Gods help you if you go Transhumanist...I barely learned how to harness solar energy for electricity, and my colonists already want these huge, expansive medical beds and procedures do de-age them or 'recharge' them.

It was also fun trying to build a colony using no wood, so my naturist colonists wouldn't pitch a fit over cutting down trees.

From what I can tell, all Ideology does is add debuffs and time-sinks, and I want zero part of any of that. It was fun initially, the idea of religious weapons and items or specific roles for your people, but their demands for those roles make them almost as hard to please as nobility.

I dunno, I guess what I consider fun in Rimworld is different than what others do. Adding layers of boxes to check before you get to DO anything isn't what I look forward to when I plop down after work.

An example of whether is the DLC or is the player? For example, if you want to make chopping trees a big sin? Why are you starting in rainforest without any hills or anything? Is like trying to play a nudist on sea ice. You chose to go with that extreme handicap. But go in arid or desert? Now it is something manageable and even of some nice benefit because there are few trees to be a bother and you can harvest Cactus. I am betting bamboo doesnt trigger the tree warning either. Then you have woodfiber. Easy wood.

Transhumanist, same deal. If one starts as a tribal transhumanist, are choosing to be in for a hard time. But regular tech? Well... the buffs arent too bad.

And then the benefits you get long term make it quite nice too. Heck, I find the trees be pretty nice once I came to realization I wanted plant cutting primary.

Then lastly, as with nobility, there are perks trade off for the penalties, but it is all in your control. You are the one who chooses when/if you ascend, not the game. Everything is 100% in your control. Your choice whether your ideology is nothing but some very minor meme that is full on anarchy happiness generating, or extreme hard mode, no tree/no mine ever allowed.

But yes, different levels of fun. Is it more checkboxes to get started? Yeah. But it offers more of the pawn individuality vs just large megabase which is what the developer's intent for gameplay is. This also means that rightfully people will not like it at all. But that isn't our call. At best we critique, explain why we find it bad to play and if alternatives, then is in Tynan's hands whether it would fit the game that he wants to make, or not.

[Series_oc]

You guys make me suffer

[El Psy Kongroo]

So far i've been loving the content on the dlc, but I see some sloppy details too. Mid-late game you lose and get new colonists often from big raids, which may lead to chaotic multicultural groups which you can't convert as fast as the game goes since only one of your pawns can actually do it

https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198957582629/screenshots/

My current and first dlc colony is still cluttered with social fights (even after nerf) and messages about certain shrines not built for x colonist because 3 colonists out of 8 and a slave aren't part of my religion. I've even had a social fight over religion in the mid of a mech raid, which has costed me valuable pawns. I know I should expect that on randy but I haven't seen 15 consecutive days without such fight, which is annoying to say the least. I think conversion resistance is right and realistic, but more methods of conversion are really needed.

Btw, if you think you will be cutting trees to build your base, don't pick tree huggers? lol

[RedPine]

I'll throw my rant in here regarding the Cannabilism meme. In terms of flavor, I love it... but the base game doesn't let you distinguish between cannibal meals and regular meals, and there's nothing you can do to stop pawns from eating the wrong meal, getting mood/social debuffs, and breaking up with eachother over it.

The "fun" way to play is to hunt after the amazing buffs, but in practice the debuffs aren't worth it, so the best way is to avoid the debuffs instead... which is relatively boring, and what my modded playthrough is like anyway.

I do like the rituals though, those are interesting. We could use more ritual slots, but that's an easy mod.

I like the DLC overall in terms of what it adds for myself and modding, but I wouldn't call it balanced or fun in it's current state. It's a minefield of noobtraps. At least Royalty gave clear warning about the downsides of the path you were on, and ramped up it's demands gradually. With Ideology, you get hit with the full impact from day 1, and can't edit your Ideology without resorting to dev mode until you <SPOILER>, so if you make even a single mistake in setting up your ideology you have to start over.

[Locklave]

Originally posted by MortVent:

Originally posted by Locklave:

There are no insults in that post and people complaining about other people using mods is completely invalid criticism. Infact that criticism implies negative traits onto those for whom the poster has no backing to prove.

Correction , I'm not complaining about them using mods.

IF you had read it correctly I was pointing out again that the first step of troubleshooting a modded game is to revert to vanilla and then add them back slowly one at a time till you find the one that causes the issue. Then you troubleshoot that mod for bugs reports on the download page, or possible incompatibility with another mod.

But some people can't understand how to fix the problem they created and instead get all defensive and aggressive like you.

You make bold assumptions about if other people did troubleshooting and assume everyone is too dim witted to do them. I did read it correctly. You are implying people are stupid in your posts and nothing in here supports that.

These last few posts of yours are excellent examples of defensive and aggressive posts.

[MortVent]

Originally posted by Locklave:

Originally posted by MortVent:

Correction , I'm not complaining about them using mods.

IF you had read it correctly I was pointing out again that the first step of troubleshooting a modded game is to revert to vanilla and then add them back slowly one at a time till you find the one that causes the issue. Then you troubleshoot that mod for bugs reports on the download page, or possible incompatibility with another mod.

But some people can't understand how to fix the problem they created and instead get all defensive and aggressive like you.

You make bold assumptions about if other people did troubleshooting and assume everyone is too dim witted to do them. I did read it correctly. You are implying people are stupid in your posts and nothing in here supports that.

These last few posts of yours are excellent examples of defensive and aggressive posts.

You missed the topic that got locked because of them screaming about how they are allowed to use mods, that they don't need to check the mods, etc.

So being ignorant of the full facts makes you look rather foolish, as well as trollish. Especially as the individual literally threw another tantrum when they were not directly called out... think on that. Meaning they know they were the one because they did not do the troubleshooting and instead just screamed the game was broken.

Edit: And there are a lot of mods that do break the game in ways people don't understand are the fault of their mod list.

Take the guy I delt with on discord: the game is broke, the fungal gravel doesn't work.

Do you have a mod that changes mountain roof to be removable?

Yeah, so?

There is your problem, it checks for the default mountain roof so a modded one will not count.

There nothing wrong with the mod!

...

[archonsod]

Originally posted by maniacal<1>:

And Gods help you if you go Transhumanist...I barely learned how to harness solar energy for electricity, and my colonists already want these huge, expansive medical beds and procedures do de-age them or 'recharge' them.

Their demands seem to escalate with the size of their cult. The more colonists following a particular religion, the more they'll want their cult positions filled, and the more cult positions filled the more they'll start demanding their other precepts are fulfilled. It does give a vague warning when you assign a cult role to a colonist, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the problem stems from premature role assignments (particularly given the roles with buffs for specific tasks).

From what I can tell, all Ideology does is add debuffs and time-sinks

It's more flexible than that. You could min-max on buffs for intended playstyle, or you can mix and match memes for something narratively interesting. You can even set it to something so slight (a colony of people with a mild dislike of slavery who like to get together for the annual dance party for example) that it's largely ignorable beyond it's impact on the world outside your colony.

Originally posted by Discapacitado666:

Mid-late game you lose and get new colonists often from big raids, which may lead to chaotic multicultural groups which you can't convert as fast as the game goes since only one of your pawns can actually do it

Your ethicist has the convert ability, if you have a holy site there's a conversion ritual. Your pawns will also randomly attempt to convert others from time to time (I've even had my ethicist spontaneously try converting someone right after using the convert ability). You can also nominate prisoners for conversion though I've never tried it (I'm assuming though since their resistance recovery depends on their mood it's likely a case of keeping them miserable enough their resistance declines then whacking them once conversion is assured).
Also worth noting you can have an ethicist for each religion, so rather than a chaotic jumble you can effectively select two or three 'main' religions (ideally those that are neutral or better on diversity of thought) which makes it easier to manage. You still get the occasional scuffle, but generally only if the two pawns dislike each other to begin with or one of them is in a particularly foul mood, at which point I think social fighting is likely whether they're trying to convert each other or not.