Why is shooting so underpowered?

[マルコ]

In real life the expectation is that if you run 10 meters towards someone holding an m16 pointed at you, you're dead.
In this game npc can sprint 100 meters and is not rare that not even a single bullet will hit them... even if the weapon was held by a decent shooter and of normal quality...
It's underwhelming really, like even with a good shooter and a good rifle I still fear to be out in the open shooting rather than behind a steel trap... shooting, or at least Aim from the shooting skill needs a buff, what do you think?

[8faiNt ı♣ı]

either combat extended which is way too much overhauling to the actual rimworld vanilla mechanic or yayo's combat 3

also
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2521176396&searchtext=
this mod has ranged shield belt
quite cool

you can also use the run and gun mod

[Straw]

Use combat extended it's the best mod for combat ovehaul

[Astasia]

Originally posted by Marcus:

In real life the expectation is that if you run 10 meters towards someone holding an m16 pointed at you, you're dead.
In this game npc can sprint 100 meters and is not rare that not even a single bullet will hit them... even if the weapon was held by a decent shooter and of normal quality...
It's underwhelming really, like even with a good shooter and a good rifle I still fear to be out in the open shooting rather than behind a steel trap... shooting, or at least Aim from the shooting skill needs a buff, what do you think?

Because the game is percent based and has multiple progression paths, "average" can't be very good without making "perfect" less attractive.

A colonist with archotech eyes, 20 shooting skill, careful shooter trait, and a legendary weapon, has pretty much a 100% chance to hit with most reasonably accurate weapons within their intended ranges (and usually well outside them). Each of those things needs to be a noticeable boost in efficiency, meaning without all of those things it will be much less impressive.

A pawn with normal human eyes, a normal quality weapon, and 10 shooting skill, isn't going to be very good at hitting things. Which is a good thing because that's what many raiders are coming at you with. Your colonists have the potential to be much better than that, giving you a huge advantage in combat eventually. That is progression, it's like struggling to kill a few rats at level 1 in an RPG, you start artificially weak to give you more room to improve.

[sk_ape]

Vanilla shooting is RNG based and as unfair as it gets. If you don't like that, you use Yayo, CE, maybe Run&Gun and Dual Wield as well.

[Astasia]

I'm going to be honest and blunt here. CE and Yayo's combat are for the most part designed for and praised by people who don't fully understand vanilla combat, neither mod solves anything that isn't handled by vanilla, and both mods break balance in multiple ways. People get frustrated by things they don't understand and instead of figuring out how to deal with the mistakes they made some of them look for a mod that appears to be the solution, then hold that mod up into the light. I would strongly suggest you figure out vanilla combat first, it's much better and more balanced than the tedious and annoying systems added by those other mods. If you really want to simplify combat, flatten progression, and not have to think about engagements though, those mods will do that, in addition to adding a bunch of other junk that makes your game unstable or incompatible with most other mods.

[King Glizerd]

Originally posted by Astasia:

I'm going to be honest and blunt here. CE and Yayo's combat are for the most part designed and praised by people who don't fully understand vanilla combat, neither mod solves anything that isn't handled by vanilla, and both mods break balance in multiple ways. People get frustrated by things they don't understand and instead of figuring out how to deal with the mistakes they made some of them look for a mod that appears to be the solution, then hold that mod up into the light. I would strongly suggest you figure out vanilla combat first, it's much better and more balanced than the tedious and annoying systems added by those other mods. If you really want to simplify combat, flatten progression, and not have to think about engagements though, those mods will do that, in addition to adding a bunch of other junk that makes your game unstable or incompatible with most other mods.

based

[8faiNt ı♣ı]

Originally posted by Astasia:

I'm going to be honest and blunt here. CE and Yayo's combat are for the most part designed and praised by people who don't fully understand vanilla combat, neither mod solves anything that isn't handled by vanilla, and both mods break balance in multiple ways. People get frustrated by things they don't understand and instead of figuring out how to deal with the mistakes they made some of them look for a mod that appears to be the solution, then hold that mod up into the light. I would strongly suggest you figure out vanilla combat first, it's much better and more balanced

So is vanilla gun shoot outs not rng based?
Thats why it sucks?
I think people do understand it.

I highly disagree with everthing you said. Vanilla combat is just take cover, have good lightning in the area, protect yourself from weather, get bionics and drugs.

Well, i say that you can just navy seal your way out of fights with simple mods. i ve got arround 150 mods i can easily get the maximum tps possible. So the reason people complain about stability is because they are using resource heavy mods. Which is why i prefer yayos combat 3 over ce. Its just better and simplified.

[Guezzy]

Originally posted by Astasia:

I'm going to be honest and blunt here. CE and Yayo's combat are for the most part designed and praised by people who don't fully understand vanilla combat, neither mod solves anything that isn't handled by vanilla, and both mods break balance in multiple ways. People get frustrated by things they don't understand and instead of figuring out how to deal with the mistakes they made some of them look for a mod that appears to be the solution, then hold that mod up into the light. I would strongly suggest you figure out vanilla combat first, it's much better and more balanced than the tedious and annoying systems added by those other mods. If you really want to simplify combat, flatten progression, and not have to think about engagements though, those mods will do that, in addition to adding a bunch of other junk that makes your game unstable or incompatible with most other mods.

+1

[Astasia]

Originally posted by 8faiNt ı♣ı:

So is vanilla gun shoot outs not rng based?

Only at very low levels. Progression removes the RNG. Highly skilled/geared shooters essentially never missed, and highly armored troops never take a full hit. Elite troops perform consistently and without any serious surprises.

Originally posted by 8faiNt ı♣ı:

have good lightning in the area

Thanks for adding to my point. Lighting has no effect on combat. What else might you be misunderstanding? What else have you read about and thought "that sounds bad" without even checking if it was accurate or not? There is nothing wrong with vanilla combat and I'm tried of people dumping garbage mod suggestions in every thread where somebody asked a basic question about combat that they don't know the answer to.

[Pizzarugi]

Originally posted by Astasia:

I'm going to be honest and blunt here. CE and Yayo's combat are for the most part designed for and praised by people who don't fully understand vanilla combat, neither mod solves anything that isn't handled by vanilla, and both mods break balance in multiple ways. People get frustrated by things they don't understand and instead of figuring out how to deal with the mistakes they made some of them look for a mod that appears to be the solution, then hold that mod up into the light. I would strongly suggest you figure out vanilla combat first, it's much better and more balanced than the tedious and annoying systems added by those other mods. If you really want to simplify combat, flatten progression, and not have to think about engagements though, those mods will do that, in addition to adding a bunch of other junk that makes your game unstable or incompatible with most other mods.

Incompatibility is perhaps the greatest flaw of those combat overhaul mods. Almost every mod under the sun has a problem with Combat Extended and perhaps Yayo. I can say with absolute certainty that half of the mods I use, at the very least, mention Combat Evolved compatibility and whether or not they're compatible with it.

Let this be a warning for anyone who is thinking about using CE: Your modpack will be extremely limited if you choose to use it.

[マルコ]

I like the idea of training a good marine, but how do I train melee and shooting without getting my colonists killed and micromanaging hunt? Can I build "fighting dummies" and "target practice/shooting ranges" ?

[Astasia]

Originally posted by Marcus:

I like the idea of training a good marine, but how do I train melee and shooting without getting myself killed? Can I build "fighting dummies" and "target practice/shooting ranges" ?

Hunting is good training for shooting, you can have them hunt small animals with a low quality weapon since missing provides full exp. Melee is much more difficult to train, but high defense armor makes melee combat pretty safe. Decent quality plate or marine armor will mean most engagements your melee fighters just have a bunch of bruises.

[8faiNt ı♣ı]

Originally posted by Astasia:

Originally posted by 8faiNt ı♣ı:

So is vanilla gun shoot outs not rng based?

Only at very low levels. Progression removes the RNG. Highly skilled/geared shooters essentially never missed, and highly armored troops never take a full hit. Elite troops perform consistently and without any serious surprises.

Originally posted by 8faiNt ı♣ı:

have good lightning in the area

Thanks for adding to my point. Lighting has no effect on combat. What else might you be misunderstanding? What else have you read about and thought "that sounds bad" without even checking if it was accurate or not? There is nothing wrong with vanilla combat and I'm tried of people dumping garbage mod suggestions in every thread where somebody asked a basic question about combat that they don't know the answer to.

You need to protect yourself from weather. My dude, roofs arent transparent you need to roof yourself. when you put a roof on top of you... It gets dark. I dont think you think this through. Having a dark place means you are affecting a pawns medical and walking speed. Basically bad. I already know mechanics of the vanilla game enough to have the basis of this convo. And i know for a fact that vanilla combat is just boring. I respect that you like the vanilla game more but you are just wrong.

[Pizzarugi]

Originally posted by Marcus:

I like the idea of training a good marine, but how do I train melee and shooting without getting my colonists killed and micromanaging hunt? Can I build "fighting dummies" and "target practice/shooting ranges" ?

There are mods that let you build those for training, but they're not very effective unless you have the pawn train with them throughout the entire day.

If you want a quick burst of training, your best bet is to find Skilltrainers, vanilla items that give you a chunk of exp in its respective skill. It's extremely effective on pawns who are passionate in the skill you have trainers for. Exotic trade ships and faction towns tend to sell them.

If you're willing to use mods: Android Tiers is a slightly expensive option. It lets you create a machine called SkyCloud Core which lets you upload a pawn's conscience into it (kills the body by default, but can be changed in configs). From there, if you have skill servers built, you can start pumping skills into the uploaded pawn practically for free. It has the added benefit of making your favorite pawns effectively immortal by keeping them in the machine while they remotely control other pawns who are connected to the network.

[マルコ]

Nah, I am completely against modding, I'll find the skilltrainers then, thx