RimWorld
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SaintD 2021 年 9 月 5 日 下午 7:58
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Why is Tynan so stubborn about his garbage combat system?
Everything wrong with this game comes down to basically one thing: the combat system. To say it's garbage is like saying the World Wars were 'somewhat unfortunate'. It's a system that produces utterly nonsensical, and thus ludicrously frustrating, results at every level, and forces players to create killboxes and get as 'gamey' as they can to deal with it as larger raids become a matter of sheer maths you can't otherwise win, against an enemy with infinite meat for any grinder.

Historically, Tynan has responded to this by trying to force players out into the open, using insects as a can opener to try and get people out of their mountain, and absolutely refusing to offer any level of fortification that has occurred for all known human history. Breaching raids, drop pod raids......all of it boils down to a stubborn refusal to face the actual problem that pushes players behind a killbox - the combat system is insultingly bad. The only way to deal with the terrible combat is to build elaborate ways to circumvent it, to do whatever weird, unintuitive, game exploiting thing you can to remove pawns and direct combat entirely from the equation because at the end of the day, the combat is so utterly arbitrary and nonsensical, you can't put an automatic weapon in front of a clear field and expect it to kill even a single person before they reach it.

I feel like Rimworld is a game that succeeds IN SPITE OF one of the biggest parts of the experience being 1/10 for implementation. This guy has a book about how to design a game, but when we really drill down into Rimworld vanilla by removing all the mods....it's an initially interesting game that in the long term reveals itself to be a pretty bad experience because of the implementation of the combat.

Tynan.....isn't a great game designer.
最后由 SaintD 编辑于; 2021 年 9 月 5 日 下午 8:06
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正在显示第 76 - 90 条,共 257 条留言
Noeat 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 5:44 
引用自 arendjvr
引用自 Noeat
im afraid ur in wrong topic with this..
tzhis is topic about nonmodded combat mechanics
well we already established that tynan isn't going to change this anytime soon. So all you can do it approach mods for this. Its not like there are achievements that get locked out when you use mods.
thats not related to critique of this combat system.. in fact u just support this critique now.
Astasia 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 6:06 
引用自 glass zebra
引用自 Astasia
Tynan wants players to use killboxes, the game is designed around them, the higher difficulties are tuned expecting you to have a proper killbox for major raids, he has confirmed as much in interviews and there's a reason there are so many killboxes on display on the store page.

You have a citation for that? I only ever read that they are "part of the game design". That he is expecting people to use them as in "I know people will use them" not "I want people to use them." People them and make posts and videos about them and they made balance changes around them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kyE_KURW-Q

About 45 minutes in. The question asked is: "Are killboxes necessary for a high difficulty game?" Tynan responds: "It's expected, it's as designed, and yes it is necessary for a high difficulty game. My thoughts on killboxes are, it's a strategy that makes sense, it's a strategy that works, and it's an interesting strategy to a degree because there's all these different ways to build a killbox." He then goes on to say his reservation is he doesn't want every single problem to be solved with a killbox, that watching raiders just file into a killbox and die is cool, but only up to a point, that shouldn't just be all the game is, which is why he's added in sieges and infestations and such to add variety.
BladeofSharpness 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 6:10 
1. Combat Extended.
2. You are not forced to play on super high difficulty, if it makes you complain the game nukes you with mega-raids.
whatamidoing 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 6:10 
I'm reminded of Legend of the Galactic Heroes, where it's mentioned that technological advances wound up nullifying other technological advances so you end up with space fleets requiring manual scouts and armored melee troops able to counter troops with laser guns. Obviously LotGH isn't Rimworld, but the idea still applies. If the enemy can drop on you from anywhere, then you need to react to that instead of relying on "me grug hide behind castle wall." We don't use castles anymore because cannons can blow up the walls easily.
glass zebra 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 6:12 
引用自 Astasia
引用自 glass zebra

You have a citation for that? I only ever read that they are "part of the game design". That he is expecting people to use them as in "I know people will use them" not "I want people to use them." People them and make posts and videos about them and they made balance changes around them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kyE_KURW-Q

About 45 minutes in. The question asked is: "Are killboxes necessary for a high difficulty game?" Tynan responds: "It's expected, it's as designed, and yes it is necessary for a high difficulty game. My thoughts on killboxes are, it's a strategy that makes sense, it's a strategy that works, and it's an interesting strategy to a degree because there's all these different ways to build a killbox." He then goes on to say his reservation is he doesn't want every single problem to be solved with a killbox, that watching raiders just file into a killbox and die is cool, but only up to a point, that shouldn't just be all the game is, which is why he's added in sieges and infestations and such to add variety.

Thank you for digging that up, especially with the time.
That was very nice of you. I usually only watched those elaborated patch videos and some reddit responses and from those I got the "I want them to be useful but cost you". I would still argue from my experiences that you can play any difficulty without them but I guess at that point it gets a bit fuzzy what counts as a kill box.
最后由 glass zebra 编辑于; 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 6:25
Sally smithson 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 7:00 
引用自 Noeat
引用自 arendjvr
well we already established that tynan isn't going to change this anytime soon. So all you can do it approach mods for this. Its not like there are achievements that get locked out when you use mods.
thats not related to critique of this combat system.. in fact u just support this critique now.
please do not put words in my mouth. all i am doing is provide you with possible solutions to your problem like quite a lot of other people here.
Yet you dont seem to accept the potentional solutions, This implies to me that you are just complaining for the sake of complaining.
but hey, please enlighten me about what you are trying to accomplish with this
Penguol05 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 7:08 
I think the issue you are trying to bring up here is the wealth desing for raid points which the solution most likely is that it needs to be adjusted a little bit, because 10 man hunter wargs are easier than 40 man hunting raccons. Its not the combat is the balance but I do agree we need more options.
Rileyyy 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 7:35 
The game sold Ms of units and it has one of the best ratings on steam. 99,9% people are happy with it. So, its your problem. The combat is 100% fine and fun
ROE 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 7:59 
The OP is correct. Combat in this game sucks and it needs some tweaks. The OP is also wrong. Tynan is a good developer. This game is well thought out and produced. He is also a savvy business man.

Combat in this game works exactly as it is designed to work, AI and all. Combat is designed to produce various types of wounds. Those wounds lead to down time and infections. Those infections can lead to death. All of the above produce drama. That drama is what this game is all about. Without the drama, there is no game.

Even with me knowing the above, I still ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hate the combat system because it does not reward tactical skill and seems to be totally based on RNG. It instead rewards experience with the game's system. Those that say git gud are right in a sense. You must learn how combat works in RIMWORLD, and it is very different from your favorite ARPG or turn based XCOM stuff.

The player also must accept the fact that wounds and death are going to happen. RNG demands it.
Chibi Life 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 8:07 
引用自 ROE
The OP is correct. Combat in this game sucks and it needs some tweaks. The OP is also wrong. Tynan is a good developer. This game is well thought out and produced. He is also a savvy business man.

Combat in this game works exactly as it is designed to work, AI and all. Combat is designed to produce various types of wounds. Those wounds lead to down time and infections. Those infections can lead to death. All of the above produce drama. That drama is what this game is all about. Without the drama, there is no game.

Even with me knowing the above, I still ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hate the combat system because it does not reward tactical skill and seems to be totally based on RNG. It instead rewards experience with the game's system. Those that say git gud are right in a sense. You must learn how combat works in RIMWORLD, and it is very different from your favorite ARPG or turn based XCOM stuff.

The player also must accept the fact that wounds and death are going to happen. RNG demands it.

Is the reward not playing on the hardest difficulty where it says "losses are inevitable" in the description and going several game years without a loss cuz of your skill?
Hykal 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 8:09 
You can limit RNG by making better weapons and armor. That's it. It's not that different from XCOM. Better gear means better success. At the end of the day, RimWorld is first and foremost a story generator/colony sim, it's not going to have Starcraft levels of depth.

However, to say it rewards no tactical skill is false. It rewards smart tactical skill PLUS the base building. It's entirely possible, with smart planning in the base building plus the combat, you are able to overcome overwhelming odds. Use traps, use IEDs, use mortars, use turrets, use animals.

The main website says:

"Your starting colonists in RimWorld are at a technological level in the middle of this span. But you may end up interacting with people at much lower and higher levels, as well as acquiring and using their tools and weapons. In RimWorld, a single fight can involve a bow and arrow, a shotgun, a charged-shot pulse rifle, and a biomechanical killing machine."

So no, the combat doesn't suck. It achieves what it aims to do, and it should be judged on that. It's not to your taste, that's fine, but it is good and competent and people like OP simply refuse to fathom that.
glass zebra 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 8:28 
引用自 Hykal
You can limit RNG by making better weapons and armor. That's it.
You can also chose where to fight and whom, which is also similar to XCOM. You don't have to stand in the open behind sandbags and shot dice rolls at each other. You can split enemies, corner the ones with scary ranged weapons and shot down the ones with scary melee weapons and similar.
Rimworld might sometimes look like stuff like that is not possible just because you get 100 raiders against 15, but just having a city wall will already make it somewhat possible to pick your targets, often without them being able to do stuff like insta gib headshots. At least if you pick targets with stuff like sniper rilfes and not the one with pistols.

I know that quote sounds like misquoting you, but that line seemed a bit blunting.
最后由 glass zebra 编辑于; 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 8:29
Security Cam #7 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 8:33 
I have never, ever used killboxes in my entire rimworld playtime. They aren't necessary at all.
Lyrin 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 10:01 
Gonna be honest: Approaching a game and projecting your own expectations onto it for how it should do certain things, getting disappointed/upset and then demanding changes is not a particularly effective approach. Especially when a lot of the audience seems to either enjoy or feel neutral towards it.

The combat is what it is. If you don't enjoy it, then you can play on a difficulty that minimizes or eliminates it. Or use mods to change it.

Or, failing that, maybe Rimworld just isn't the game you want to be playing?

Like instead of trying to insult the devs and subsequently people who offer counterarguments, you could just, idk, find something else to play?

引用自 Hykal
So no, the combat doesn't suck. It achieves what it aims to do, and it should be judged on that. It's not to your taste, that's fine, but it is good and competent and people like OP simply refuse to fathom that.
Pretty much agree with this 100%.
ACS36 2021 年 9 月 6 日 上午 10:13 
Combat in the game is great.

Kill boxes are a result of players believing they have to play the game on 200%-500% difficulty. This is a mistake in understanding where challenge comes from in the game.

The game can be just as hard on 50% as it is on 500%. It really comes down to how you want to play the game. Try setting default mood to -20. Don't prune your pawns or only select the best ones to play with. Don't avoid traits you dislike. Disable all your mods that break game balance. Don't build kill boxes. Play as nomads. There are so many varieties to difficulty in this game that your post is really nonsense.

It's clear that the game functions best when you're not worried about making it as hard as possible from a raiding perspective.
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发帖日期: 2021 年 9 月 5 日 下午 7:58
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