Are embrasures op ?

[Tam]

I have never tried to play with them, but according to some comments they totally negate animal packs and rushing melee boys. But what's with the shootin ones ?
Does game become trivial with them ?

I really want to make the combat not bound to kilboxes or fields of traps/sandbags.

[pauloandrade224]

There ya go

[pauloandrade224]

Escrito originalmente por Kasa:

Balance is subjective, embrasures do make a lot of the events easier but they also work both ways, once raiders get up to the embrasures they can shoot through it and get the same coverage bonus your pawns get just like using sandbags.

Yes melee raiders are at a disadvantage but last game I had them one they attacked the embrasures just fine. So that only leaves man-hunting animals and predictors so ymmv.

In my experience a line of embrasures and colonists stacked on them meant the raiders couldn't even approach the embrasures without dying.

Only boss like monsters would go through the cthulu mod has some insane ones

[Kasa]

Isn't that just good layout and fire power on your side of things?

If the raiders arn't even able to approach your embrasures before dying wouldn't that mean if you replaced them with sand bags the same thing would happen?

[Tam]

Escrito originalmente por Kasa:

Isn't that just good layout and fire power on your side of things?

If the raiders arn't even able to approach your embrasures before dying wouldn't that mean if you replaced them with sand bags the same thing would happen?

Well yeah but animal packs gonna be trivial i think same as insects.
Prolly gonna use them only to cover turrets cause small ones are garbage when not in masses. With embs they wont lose duel to rabbits at least.

Escrito originalmente por pauloandrade224:

There ya go

Thanks, gonna try that mix of mods.

[Zane87]

Escrito originalmente por Tamm:

Escrito originalmente por Zane87:

Especially since you can place your turrets behind them

But aren't vanilla turets meh ?
The last time mad fox 1x2 manned my vanilla turrets, they literally hit that animal once.

Quantity over quality here. Vanilla balances that with terrible stats and high cost if they go poof. Embrasures make sure the latter happens a lot more rarely, which means you can use massed turrets that are well protected a lot more easily with them.

That PLUS your own pawns behind empracure/barricades and all the other killbox cheese you could do anyway, but the embracures eliminate one huge trouble for next to no cost, relatively.

[pauloandrade224]

Escrito originalmente por Kasa:

Isn't that just good layout and fire power on your side of things?

If the raiders arn't even able to approach your embrasures before dying wouldn't that mean if you replaced them with sand bags the same thing would happen?

Sandbags are passable for anyone Embrasures block movement that's why they are much better than sandbags.

With sandbags Guaranteed id have died like 3 times in my rimworld campaign today (full colony wipe)

[Astasia]

They certainly don't fall within vanilla game balance, but they don't make the entire game trivial, a slight increase in difficulty scaling usually counters the benefits you get from using them. They do make animals (manhunters and maddened) a non-threat, but that's the only enemy that can't really counter them in some way, and you could just as easily just keep your door closed and wait for those animals to leave. Against ranged attackers an embrasure is basically just a sandbag, grenades and rockets will also just delete them. Infestations and melee raids will attack their way through your walls and doors to get to your colonists. The mod linked above to make melee raids attack embrasures actually makes embrasures stronger, usually melee attackers rush your door which is weaker and they will punch through a vanilla door very quickly and flood inside and out of your firing line. If you get wrecked by an all melee raid using a sandbag defense then you probably wont be able to take them down using embrasures either, you are just getting a slight delay in terms of door health (instead of the slowdown of sandbags/barriers) before they reach your colonists.

In most cases a good ol' vanilla chokepoint defense with a heavily armored tank colonist (with tough) and an S curve inlet will outperform a generic embrasure killbox.

About half or one third of my games I usually end up with embrasures (or equivalent) as part of my main defense, in those games I usually limit myself in other ways, like by using fewer turrets and no traps, or increasing the difficulty a bit. I don't use embrasures for make-shift defenses for dealing with things like infestations or most exterior threats because they aren't worth the effort of setting up.

[pauloandrade224]

Escrito originalmente por Astasia:

They certainly don't fall within vanilla game balance, but they don't make the entire game trivial, a slight increase in difficulty scaling usually counters the benefits you get from using them. They do make animals (manhunters and maddened) a non-threat, but that's the only enemy that can't really counter them in some way, and you could just as easily just keep your door closed and wait for those animals to leave. Against ranged attackers an embrasure is basically just a sandbag, grenades and rockets will also just delete them. Infestations and melee raids will attack their way through your walls and doors to get to your colonists. The mod linked above to make melee raids attack embrasures actually makes embrasures stronger, usually melee attackers rush your door which is weaker and they will punch through a vanilla door very quickly and flood inside and out of your firing line. If you get wrecked by an all melee raid using a sandbag defense then you probably wont be able to take them down using embrasures either, you are just getting a slight delay in terms of door health (instead of the slowdown of sandbags/barriers) before they reach your colonists.

In most cases a good ol' vanilla chokepoint defense with a heavily armored tank colonist (with tough) and an S curve inlet will outperform a generic embrasure killbox.

About half or one third of my games I usually end up with embrasures (or equivalent) as part of my main defense, in those games I usually limit myself in other ways, like by using fewer turrets and no traps, or increasing the difficulty a bit. I don't use embrasures for make-shift defenses for dealing with things like infestations or most exterior threats because they aren't worth the effort of setting up.

The thing with the mod is the enemies in my experience would funnel up and be super bunched up (so aoe stuff would blow them apart) near or by the door with the mod in ny experience they attack all the walls plus they get covered by said embrasures which imo makes it a bit harder.

Funneling enemies with door plus traps would be very destructive for raiders thats why i added that mod.

[Morkonan]

Escrito originalmente por Tamm:

...
I really want to make the combat not bound to kilboxes or fields of traps/sandbags.

I've never used Embrasures, largely because they're a bit too powerful IMO.

(On the below - I don't mention Turrets 'cause I don't like bunches of turrets... BUT, they are pretty necessary from mid-game on, IMO. One should still consider optimally placed turrets if using the below examples. Traps are a no-brainer, too - They're too cosr-effective to ignore.)

But, on the quoted above, I've tried different methods to avoid classic killbox tactics. The biggest hurdle is that one still sort of needs to be able to count on Raiders being funneled in some way, even if it's just "mild." Some Raids make it very difficult to get pawns to prepared position. In that case, "defense in depth" construction and very good gear is the way to go, but you still should be moving pawns to a prepared position and that's usually, once again, a position you can sort of count on raiders coming at you from one direction and being exposed while they do it.

You can try out a sort of "T" bunker. Just construct a classic wall and sandbag bunker with a protected (covered) line of retreat. You'll still be counting on the raiders coming from the "North" if one builds it exactly like a "T." If the raiders are advanced or just too numerous or the incoming fire is too much of a threat, retreat to a secondary position using the path protected by the base of the "T." (Hallway-like) It's still likely you'd want to make a two tile wide vertical base of the "T" and scatter traps, since they're likely to bust down a door leading from the bunker to it if they see you retreat, which they will.

And, if the retreat path leads into a large room where you can focus-fire at the doorway? It's kind of like a "killbox" anyway.

I've tried the sort of "Waterloo" "Square Formation" bunker setup with overwatching fields of fire. Aside from the obvious (Friendly Fire issues) the lack of an ability to concentrate all your fire means you've got to have good weapons/pawns. And, since pawns will be moving to those positions using different paths, you've got more of a chance that one/more will be exposed.

In short?

A killbox lets you maximize what you've got. It works from the beginning of the game when Raids start to get tough all the way through to the end, more or less. IOW - It's the most efficient and advantageous defense. You don't usually have to worry much about expanding or heavily modifying it, either. Once it's built, you'll likely use it most of the game. Other methods can be used, but then you have to start relying much more on skill levels and gear/weapons to pull you through and the risk of injury due to mishap is a lot greater.

[pauloandrade224]

Escrito originalmente por Morkonan:

Escrito originalmente por Tamm:

...
I really want to make the combat not bound to kilboxes or fields of traps/sandbags.

I've never used Embrasures, largely because they're a bit too powerful IMO.

(On the below - I don't mention Turrets 'cause I don't like bunches of turrets... BUT, they are pretty necessary from mid-game on, IMO. One should still consider optimally placed turrets if using the below examples. Traps are a no-brainer, too - They're too cosr-effective to ignore.)

But, on the quoted above, I've tried different methods to avoid classic killbox tactics. The biggest hurdle is that one still sort of needs to be able to count on Raiders being funneled in some way, even if it's just "mild." Some Raids make it very difficult to get pawns to prepared position. In that case, "defense in depth" construction and very good gear is the way to go, but you still should be moving pawns to a prepared position and that's usually, once again, a position you can sort of count on raiders coming at you from one direction and being exposed while they do it.

You can try out a sort of "T" bunker. Just construct a classic wall and sandbag bunker with a protected (covered) line of retreat. You'll still be counting on the raiders coming from the "North" if one builds it exactly like a "T." If the raiders are advanced or just too numerous or the incoming fire is too much of a threat, retreat to a secondary position using the path protected by the base of the "T." (Hallway-like) It's still likely you'd want to make a two tile wide vertical base of the "T" and scatter traps, since they're likely to bust down a door leading from the bunker to it if they see you retreat, which they will.

And, if the retreat path leads into a large room where you can focus-fire at the doorway? It's kind of like a "killbox" anyway.

I've tried the sort of "Waterloo" "Square Formation" bunker setup with overwatching fields of fire. Aside from the obvious (Friendly Fire issues) the lack of an ability to concentrate all your fire means you've got to have good weapons/pawns. And, since pawns will be moving to those positions using different paths, you've got more of a chance that one/more will be exposed.

In short?

A killbox lets you maximize what you've got. It works from the beginning of the game when Raids start to get tough all the way through to the end, more or less. IOW - It's the most efficient and advantageous defense. You don't usually have to worry much about expanding or heavily modifying it, either. Once it's built, you'll likely use it most of the game. Other methods can be used, but then you have to start relying much more on skill levels and gear/weapons to pull you through and the risk of injury due to mishap is a lot greater.

Or you're like me and Put the realistic 1 or 2 sets of walls with embrasures in between them Then cut and clean anything that serves as cover (except geothermal gens and their walls because they are too good imo)

Simple and deadly plus it feels fair imo.

[pauloandrade224]

And then its shooting Raiders in a barrel time!

[Morkonan]

Escrito originalmente por pauloandrade224:

..
Or you're like me and Put the realistic 1 or 2 sets of walls with embrasures in between them Then cut and clean anything that serves as cover (except geothermal gens and their walls because they are too good imo)

Simple and deadly plus it feels fair imo.

To each their own! There's no "one way to play." :)

[pauloandrade224]

Escrito originalmente por Morkonan:

Escrito originalmente por pauloandrade224:

..
Or you're like me and Put the realistic 1 or 2 sets of walls with embrasures in between them Then cut and clean anything that serves as cover (except geothermal gens and their walls because they are too good imo)

Simple and deadly plus it feels fair imo.

To each their own! There's no "one way to play." :)

Yeah And trust me my walls are hella deadly.


Except if like 300 insects or 40 shoggoths invade then we fight for every tile ( had that today it got so bloody the game was at 1 fps and i was forced to use runtime to deleplte corspes and blood oooofff)

[Naryar]

to be honest, embrasures might be OP against most tribal threats and make manhunters and some bugs literally free training (but well, so does a wall and melee block, to a slightly leser extent)...

But against pirate raids with good firepower, snipers with high skills, grenades, or mechanoid raids with mortars, final boss tier centipedes, and deadly spacer tech weapons ? Not really.

It also is much more fun and feels better to use embrasures and actually fortify your base in a meaningful way rather than cheese the AI and use killboxes.

Granted the AI is still pretty dumb and I can just make labyrinths with doors to bait grenadier raiders into killing themselves or their allies. They sometimes don't even need my imput to do so.

[Raymond]

Escrito originalmente por THE BAD LUKE:

They're balanced with Combat Extended I find. Pawns only poke their head over so it leads to a high incidence of headshots. On top of that, they're prime target for ranged explosive weaponry which dgaf about static cover.

technically your pawns will have chance of taking headshot in other type of coverage also, but it is true that chance of catching explosive shells such as inferno cannon increase massively. It also catch more bullets in a range fight which destroy the embrasure quicker than sandbag. With some mod the embrasure at least look cool tho.