Get Raids to Enter Kill Box

[PyroMancer]

So I see a TON of videos online recommending Kill Box for the hard difficulties but I can't seem to get them to work. It's not the Kill box itself but rather getting the enemies to go into it.

I have had raiders spawn and then go right up to a mountain and dig through 10 layers of rock to enter by base from the rear. Which is odd since my walls were only 2 thick at the time and it would have been easier to go over a few blocks and bust through my wall.

It seems every time I setup a good kill box the enemies do everything they can no ignore it. Either they start blasting through walls, digging through mountains, drop podding into base, or setting up a siege at the edge of the map and bombarding my base.

I've love to see a mass group of enemies rush my kill box like I see in all the videos but it never seems to happen. I leave a clear path for them to follow into my base so I know they have a route in. And early game the do take the path. But as my wealth increases and I get harder waves they seem to start ignoring the box despite no changes to it's layout. Only thing that has changed is more pawns with more fire power and general improvements inside the base.

Is there something I'm missing that could force them into the box?

[Jigain]

Some basic information about raids:

The vast majority of raids are "stupid" raids. These are your bogstandard raiders that'll just beeline for the inside of your base through the first unobstructed path they find. Do note this, UNOBSTRUCTED. They're fine with slogging through water, mud, swamp, mine fields and turrets so long as they don't have to deal with any walls or closed doors along the way. But if they can't find any, they'll make their own entrance.

Then you have the raids led by a sapper. These are "smart" raids. They'll check your base out, try to figure out where the defenses are lowest (by checking where you have turrets and where you don't), and try to get there and bust down whatever wall or door you're hiding behind. Do note that only the sapper can do this - if you manage to take out the sapper, the rest default to "stupid raid" mode.

Either of these can and will dig through mountains if they need to in order to get to you, just like how any caravan you attempt to trap can dig their way out when the AI says "I need to get from this point to that point but there's no way to get there".

[uuwuu]

maybe a dumb question, but is there a direct path through the box into your base? I had an issue with it when I first tried using them, but I had a door that separated the box from my colony, probably because I'm dumb and so they didn't really go toward it.

[PyroMancer]

There is a clear path into my base. On the current map I didn't even really build a kill "Box" but rather more of a Kill "Wall". And what I mean but that is I made a 3 thick wall in the shape of a C with a clear opening that was about 5-6 blocks wide. Which open up into a huge area around my main base that I plan to fill later.

But mainly I build a line of turrets and sandbags a short distances for this C shaped wall opening. This was because for this play through I wanted to try and keep my Pawns out of Harms way by relying more on automated defenses. The turret wall is far enough back that it can't even hit stone wall but leaves no cover for enemies. And the enemies can walk around them as it's just a row of turrets thrown down for ease going into mid game.

When the raids spawn on the front of the base where the C is they do seem to walk right into the opening and get chewed up by the turrets. If the spawn on the other side of the base they just dig through mountains or break down walls. If the spawn on the either of the sides it's like 50/50 chance they walk around the corner to go into the giant opening.

But the thing that makes any of my Kill Box efforts feel wasted is the numerous ways the AI renders it meaningless. Like drop pods into the middle of your base, insect swarms if you build underground, mecha drops which patrol around crash ship that negatively effects your colony, sieges where the enemy just setups mortars to bombard you base, and etc.

As none of those have to do with AI not doing pathfinding and more with having to be able to deal with enemies on the fly and go on the offensive.

[Iskander]

One roundabout way of trying to fix your issue, is to use the mods "mad editor" and/or "re-roll maps" and generate the perfect defensive map for yourself, ideally with only a single point of entry. This is not a 100% fix, as you'll still get sappers/drop-pods/infestations, but at least those raids arriving on foot will have a much higher chance of walking into your death trap.

[Jigain]

Originally posted by PyroMancer:

But the thing that makes any of my Kill Box efforts feel wasted is the numerous ways the AI renders it meaningless. Like drop pods into the middle of your base, insect swarms if you build underground, mecha drops which patrol around crash ship that negatively effects your colony, sieges where the enemy just setups mortars to bombard you base, and etc.

As none of those have to do with AI not doing pathfinding and more with having to be able to deal with enemies on the fly and go on the offensive.

Yeah, these are all conscious game design decisions attempting to reduce reliance on killboxes (and other means of turtling) as your only line of defense. All of them have different ways to deal with them. For mortars, mech ships, and mech clusters, organize a group and go on the offensive. For drop pod raids, spread turrets throughout your base and plan for mid-base chokepoints to fire from. For insect hives, learn how the game decides where to spawn them and plan defenses for that area (or avoid mountain bases altogether). And so on and so forth. All of these are mechanics to make gameplay more active and interesting than "I've set up my killbox, now I can just let the game run in the background overnight and I'll be done with this playthrough tomorrow morning".

And there are mods for all of these threats to disable them. Some you can even do straight in the scenario editor, no mods required. Play the game the way you enjoy it. :)

[Hoki]

sorry but why doesnt anyone ask the obvious question first: can you provide a screenshot of your killbox?

a killbox is in a utshell nothing else than a very fancy kind of path. you need an acess and a bait. the bait can be within the killbox but personally i prefer using an exit instead. as long as the raiders have somethin to path to (the bait) they should go through the KB.

if theres nothing reachable they will turn to sappers instead pathing directly to their target.

if bait and target are both provided the normal raids should work just fine.

[BanDHMO]

Isn't that a good thing for you? Killbox is to protect the entry into your base, which can't be all that hardened (doors are weak and need space between them. If the raiders are instead choosing to dig at a 10-deep mountain, where each cell is 1000hps and they are stationary targets, then you get to laugh maniacally while lobbing mortar shells on top of their dumb asses from the safety of your base.

All you'd need for repairs is to fill in the damage to the mountain with granite walls and you are all set. Usually, for me, bombardment brings them to their senses quickly and they start moving to my main entry killbox in order to not be sitting ducks.

PS: also, if you'd rather have a solution than an argument how it's good for you, check out the terraforming mod that lets you dig out deep water, and build an impassable moat around your base, forcing them into your killbox.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by PyroMancer:

So I see a TON of videos online recommending Kill Box for the hard difficulties but I can't seem to get them to work. It's not the Kill box itself but rather getting the enemies to go into it.

I have had raiders spawn and then go right up to a mountain and dig through 10 layers of rock to enter by base from the rear. Which is odd since my walls were only 2 thick at the time and it would have been easier to go over a few blocks and bust through my wall.

Sappers do not see walls as inhibiting movement at as high a value as other raiders. That's why they can choose to take a path through them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXFVTjaBzOk

(There are other vids in that series and it's all really good info. Thought some has changed, most of the general info is still applicable/usable.)

It seems every time I setup a good kill box the enemies do everything they can no ignore it. Either they start blasting through walls, digging through mountains, drop podding into base, or setting up a siege at the edge of the map and bombarding my base.

Only sapper/digger and drop-pods raids will do that. IOW - There are several different types of raids.

I've love to see a mass group of enemies rush my kill box like I see in all the videos but it never seems to happen. I leave a clear path for them to follow into my base so I know they have a route in. And early game the do take the path. But as my wealth increases and I get harder waves they seem to start ignoring the box despite no changes to it's layout. Only thing that has changed is more pawns with more fire power and general improvements inside the base.

Is there something I'm missing that could force them into the box?

What is your "clear path?"

A clear path is also one that is out of turret range. Primitive Raiders can not "see" turrets when they decide on a path. Other Raiders can and will determine their path based on that. If your turrets are fully covering a path into your base, it's not really a "clear" path.

On different raid spawning positions - The raid that spawns from a direction that tends to yield sapper raids is likely in the same direction as an advanced hostile faction. You'll tend to see raids spawn on sides of the map that are closest to the faction they're coming from. (When that applies, AFAIK.)

Traps: The need to leave a "clear path in" that's outside of turret ranges is why there are "maze traps." As you probably know, raiders can't see traps. Raiders that escape where their raid encountered traps will communicate that info to their faction, meaning future raids will avoid those tiles. If you have had some raiders escape your defenses, moving the traps they triggered or setting things up slightly differently is a good choice.

[PyroMancer]

Originally posted by Hoki:

you need an acess and a bait. the bait can be within the killbox but personally i prefer using an exit instead. as long as the raiders have somethin to path to (the bait) they should go through the KB.

When you say Bait do you mean like storage with valuable stuff in it? Cause I tend to put my storage rooms at the back of my base which is furthest from the Kill Box. As everyone just mention having a clear path into your base, which the kill box does, I never really considered the position of the storage room which is likely what they are going for and is sealed off with doors like most of the buildings/rooms in the base.

Inside the walls of the base is farm land and separate buildings with various functions as you'd expect. So when they are clear path to your base I figure it leads into the open courtyard with all my buildings.

Maybe if I re-arrange base layout so the storage room is next to the kill box they would be more likely to go there. Also is there items more likely to attract the enemy raiders if put in store house?

Originally posted by BanDHMO:

PS: also, if you'd rather have a solution than an argument how it's good for you, check out the terraforming mod that lets you dig out deep water, and build an impassable moat around your base, forcing them into your killbox.

I do want solutions which is why I keep bringing up issues I've had when trying some of the suggestions as I feel I might be missing something.

Over the years working at various places trouble shooting issues I find people tend to leave things out either because they assume the other person knows it and is already doing it or it simply slipped their minds. And the person needing that info doesn't know what they don't know and thus can't ask about that info.

So you often end up with cases where person is saying something doesn't work and the instructor ask are you doing A & C because that is often what is wrong. The person with the issue says they have done as the instructor told them and it still isn't working. The instructor insist they must be doing A & C wrong only to find after much frustration on both parties part that the person was doing as told A &C but they needed to be doing A, B, & C.

Originally posted by Morkonan:

What is your "clear path?"

A clear path is also one that is out of turret range. Primitive Raiders can not "see" turrets when they decide on a path. Other Raiders can and will determine their path based on that. If your turrets are fully covering a path into your base, it's not really a "clear" path.

...

Traps: The need to leave a "clear path in" that's outside of turret ranges is why there are "maze traps." As you probably know, raiders can't see traps. Raiders that escape where their raid encountered traps will communicate that info to their faction, meaning future raids will avoid those tiles. If you have had some raiders escape your defenses, moving the traps they triggered or setting things up slightly differently is a good choice.

Yeah I often put a couple turrets in to support the fire power of my pawns in my killbox in the past. In the current setup they can enter the box and then hug the outside wall to stay away from turrets as it's not really much of a box just an opening with a line of turrets near the farm land as the base was fairly new and didn't build a proper box yet.

Also when I first started Rim World I used the cheesy long hallway with spike trap base entrance which worked quite well during the start of the game. But it seems to have different levels of success as the game progressed. Animals would always run through but some raids would bust in the walls while others would still run through the hall of death traps.

I didn't realize that survivors report back to their faction about trap locations which would explain a bit. I stop using the hallway of traps because it was unreliable as late game stuff was tougher that even if they did use it I would end up burning through stone replacing all the traps. Since heavy armor targets would go through several traps and I tend to play in plains/hill regions without much stone. Though I suppose I could get mod that lets you mine more stone. This play through I went for mountains though to try something new.

Mostly I have been using a core group of worker pawns and then recruiting every other pawn I could, giving them a gun, and using them as cannon fodder against attackers. As long as my core 8 workers survive the other dozen+ can die horrible deaths. ;)

I mean the guard pawns still work the fields, mine, clean/haul, and generally work for their upkeep but I don't worry to much about them as the dedicated workers I want to max their skills so they produce higher quality stuff.

The issue I have with this tactic is late game I would end up with so many cannon fodder animals and pawns the game would slow down a bit. So this time around I figured I'd try my hand at kill box again with more focus on turrets rather than disposable pawn soldiers. Plus I figure I wouldn't have to deal with all the Mood hits when like 3-4 Pawns die to a raid of 20-30 bandits.

[BanDHMO]

You don't need a mod to mine stone. A Deep Drill, placed on a non-deposit area, should produce chunks. But in practice I don't use that. The easiest way to get stone is to buy bricks from traders already processed. I also don't make stone traps. Steel and chemfuel can be produced on almost any map indefinitely(deep scanner will keep discovering new deposits forever) and that's all you need for devastating traps. Unless you play with a big crowd of pawns on high difficulty and get swarms of enemies, it shouldn't cost too much to rebuild after a raid.

EDIT: Also, while inside your base you want highly efficient traps because space is very important, there are usually areas outside the base that are likely to see enemy traffic. This is usually valleys between hills or bits of firm land bordered by mud or soft sand. Those are the places I like to put wooden traps if the biome is tree-rich. One such trap might not kill an enemy, but it'll still do damage and can cause him to lag behind the main group and/or be much less effective in battle.

Also, this is the mod I mentioned earlier, which lets you dig impassable moats, if you really want a fool-proof way to force enemies into your killbox:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2036488024&searchtext=bridges