Help sought for manipulating raiders and base layout

[Kreddi]

For reference, here's my current base and raider situation: https://imgur.com/gZnQAny
I'm confident I can beat the raiders as my weapons are far superior, but it's more about my defensive layout being pointless.

The one thing I find most frustrating about my playtime so far is my inability to make my defense against raiders go the way I want it to. I've set up hallways of traps and killzone-corridors, but the raiders always find means to get around them; even going as far as mining through 5-6 steel walls rather than taking the path I would like them to go.
I don't have a large amount of colonists, but I'm already starting to feel like I'm rapidly running out of space. Stockpiles overflowing, food spilling out of the fridge keeping the doors open.

So I'm curious what the basic format/principle behind you guys' colonies are. I started my colony out by digging into a central and large mountain, which I've started expanding out of as seen on the picture at the start of my post. Did I go about it in a bad way?
I've seen some screenshots of colonies build like a fort; a square of walls with the colony build as a small town within. Is it typical to build every 'station' as it's own building, with open air between?

If you build your colonies like me, how do you make a fridge that doesn't struggle with temperature? With 3 coolers, my fridge struggles to stay at freezing point while the room that the heat goes into rises to 40-50 degrees.

[BurlsoL]

Pathing is primarily determined by reachability. Consider stone walls a 2, steel walls a 1.5, wood walls a 1, sandbags, stones, and similar rubble that slows movement to be 0.5. These are not actual values, but a conceptual ballpark. Normal raids will usually go for the route of least resistance, even if that means running around the entire map or digging through walls instead of climbing over sandbags. There is also a small degree of learning where raids are less likely to take the same route as their last failed raid, as a measure to decrease the effectiveness of killboxes.

Where raids are focused on going is also a factor as raiders will usually change their intended target based on value of items in an area. For example, putting all your silver and steel in a building further away from your base will make raiders usually just break into that building to steal it instead of caring very much about killing your colonists. You can use this aspect as a way of baiting raiders to more regularly target one part of your base above others, but still need to keep in mind reachability.

Sappers use reachability differently and will instead specifically target walls.


For layout, everyone has their own way of things. You are however taking a risk with some of those dark and dirty places under overhead mountain (like your hydroponics area) though.

Personally, I do my living quarters as rooms of all similar size and layout so I can have more direct control of who has the better rooms just by moving around art or bed quality. I also usually have my beds in an area somewhat separate from the medical room just because I've had infestations pop up and destroy most of my beds and the adjacent hospital leaving me without a place to bring wounded or places to sleep. I prefer to keep my hallways 2 or 3 wide so that they can be used for defending against drop pod raids.

For your freezer... You need to keep the warm side of the coolers facing an unroofed or outside area in order for them to work properly.Double thick walls around the freezer room can help it work better due to the way walls calculate insulation value. For insulation 2x is better than 3x since the game treats 3x as having an air space between instead of a solid wall.

[Kreddi]

Thanks for the in-depth answer!
I haven't been attacked by sappers yet, but I can imagine they would become a massive problem for my northern trade beacon / Storage dump. With only two steel walls, it seems like a weakpoint to anyone that directly targets walls.
Is dealing with sappers more a question of making walls x deep, or having layers of walls with defences inbetween?

Do infestations target rooms consistently? I've only been hit by an infestation once, but that did target a bed room. Luckily I had enough strong animals to force my way inside and handle it without loses, but if later infestations grow tougher then I'm in trouble.

What is the risk of my hydroponics area? Are you thinking entirely mood/needs wise? Or does it encourage some danger I'm not aware of?

I removed roof above the sections where heat is moved, and it seems to have helped quite a bit already.

[climbingeastofwinter]

I don't have a lot of luck making sappers do what I want them to do, and infestations, sieges, and drop-pod assaults are all different animals entirely when it comes to planning defenses, but any raid that consists of raiders running at you from the map edge can be pretty thoroughly messed with by building a baffle along the map edge -- I like constructing perhaps 3 slightly offset lines of 2x2 stone walls surrounded by a 1 tile concrete flooring, with some traps in the walkway between them but at least one or more routes (generally the long way through) with no traps at all.

It can be time, labor and resource intensive, but once you get it done, if can serve to slow down and break up attack waves and gives the enemy something to have to deal with before they ever get close to your base.

[BurlsoL]

Infestations target any areas that are dark and dirty while being under a mountain. You can prompt them where you want them by having a dark and dirty place, or avoid them completely if you keep things clean and lit.

For sappers, some of it is just experience dealing with them and recognizing those places where they will try to break through. The best defense is really just to have a base that can be defended from inside as 3x, 4x, 5x walls don't necessarily discourage them (since they can tunnel with grenades or rocket launchers). You can occasionally bait them to certain parts of your exterior wall, and have some incendiary IEDs waiting for them as they run around looking for a weak spot, but this is not that reliable and more of a happy fluke when it happens.

[gussmed]

I've found great success taking advantage of sappers' aversion to turrets.

I have a ring of turrets surrounding my entire base, protected by an outer wall so regular raids won't just rush them. They aren't intended as a serious defense, they're intended to discourage sappers from attacking most of the wall.

There's a winding corridor which ends in a door, where a sapper could theoretically reach the interior of the base without encountering any turrets by blowing through that door. It's filled with spike traps. The corridor has granite doors along the side so my engineers can replace the traps without stepping on any traps.

The corridor has an open end which spills out into my killbox. The idea is that once the traps kill any sappers, the rest of the raiders continue through to the killbox instead of trying to break through the door.

I've had 3 sapper raids, and everyone of them has funneled through that corridor.

https://imgur.com/edfm3lG

[Kreddi]

I'm gathering that I've gone about my defences in a slightly skewed manner.
For any attacks that'll start from the edge of the map I figured I'd build four killboxes, one for each edge, and thick enough walls everywhere else to encourage them going through my killboxes.

My base is also quite dense, 1 tile wide hallways and rooms of inefficient sizes.

@gussmed it's a bit difficult to tell from the picture, so let me know if I got anything wrong.
You are using single-deep walls with turrets covered by barricades a fair step back to discourage sappers and raiders both? If raiders appear from the south, will they not mine through that single wall and swarm against the spread turrets?
And is the construction to the east your killbox?

[gussmed]

Thickness of walls really doesn't matter very much. Sappers will blow through anything less than 20-thick walls, and non-sapper raids won't try and go through walls at all if there's a clear path.

The only time wall strength matters is when a hostile force sees something go through a door. Then they'll try and beat down the door. If the door isn't very strong, you can get a breach that way. Generally this only really arises when your animals run through a door, or if you try and play peek-a-boo, shooting at the hostiles and then running through a door.

No, the sappers don't blow through the walls in my setup. Sappers try and find a path that involves the least amount of coverage by turrets. Since there's a pathway into the base that avoids turret field of fire entirely, they'll always go that way, rather than blowing through a wall and then having to face a turret. It happens that the "safe" path is littered with spike traps.

The walls are there to protect the turrets from non-sapper raiders. Non-sapper raiders don't mind assaulting turrets, but they won't try and break through walls or doors unless there's no other way. Once the spike traps kill any sappers in a raid, the rest will assault the killbox, since that's the path that doesn't involve walls or doors.

The main reason for the barricades around the turrets is in case of attacks that appear inside the walls, like mech drop pods. It makes the turrets a little more durable in that case.

Here's a close up of the "safe" path / killbox area.

https://imgur.com/a/zPUe7hT

In this particular image I recently fought off a swarm of wargs, so a bunch of the traps are triggered and need to be replaced. Also, I lured them into attacking by sending one guy trhough a door to the east, and 3-4 of the wargs broke down the door chasing him.

It's not something I do against most enemies, but manhunter swarms don't assault until you tease them. Unlike most other attacks.

The killbox isn't really that heavily defended by turrets either; mostly it's an area where my colonists can set up behind hard cover.

[Kreddi]

Hmm. Early on in my playthrough, probably the third or fourth raid, one raider mined through a 5-tile thick wall I had patched with steel in a mountain. In the picture I posted you can see it below the southern-most geo-generator.
The path carved through those two mountains were a guy mining, he didn't use explosives or any other kind of weapon; It was just like colonists deconstructing a steel wall.
I think that has scared me with the idea that some raiders will mine through walls rather than taking the long way around.
I don't know what kind of raid it was because at the time I didn't realise that 'normal' raids fit into different categories.


Thanks for the zoomed version of your killbox! I take it that the turret just north of the kill box and solargenerators is what stops sappers from blasting through the killbox as well? Considering the path to the nearest beds are short and there's only a wooden wall there.

You've given me a lot of perspective on defences, so it's much appreciated!

[Feyda]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2043893999

I usually build a perimeter wall that has an opening (see left in the screenshot. Most raids tend to path to the gate and I have some sandbag cover set up that lets me make good use of medium range weapons while not getting sniped by sniper rifles or pikemen. The "T" design of the gate makes sure those long range guys cant just stand outside my base and plink in. I like to use a few turrets as distractions and in this run I spaced out some uranium slug turrets on the inside of the walls to take out those annoying bozos who decide to flee deeper into my base and then break walls to get out. Also helps when you get the scattered landing pods and random enemies wandering around the base.

Remember drop pod raids negate planned defenses so you can see I have a fair number of sandbag rally points set up throughout the base so my guys have cover options

[Cannenses]

There's something with a mindset that says, "I have superior weapons, but my defensive style/options/strategies are ..."?

I'll be the first to think I'm full of it but here's the thing: I do think I have superior fighting team (weapons, skills, DPS, tactics, etc.). So, any fool who comes into my map is converted to food for my animals or fodder for my smelter. I don't wait for their mortars to drop. I don't wait for them to "wake up". I don't care what they have because it makes no diff. I fight them immediately. And I do this whilst sending multiple teams for quests, trades, mines, etc. In other words, I don't need my full-team to fight anyone if they're on my map. So, I don't do walls, I don't do mortars. Therefore, I don't hide nor defend. My map is open and welcoming.

This is stupidly arrogant, lol. But heck, if I can't do that IRL, I might as well be like that in a game ... :-)

p.s. Don't mind me, I just took on an entire squad of mechs that dropped near my base - 4 scythers, 2 lancers, 6 centipedes. They were not the sleepy kind. The mechs fought and kiiled chicken and sheep before before my team could react. When they did, these tinbots died. Two of pawns were "bruised" --- I feel invincible!!! LOL

[Feyda]

I have 6 pawns with tough trait and cataphract armor. Mobile walls essentially

[gussmed]

Originally posted by Kreddi:

I take it that the turret just north of the kill box and solargenerators is what stops sappers from blasting through the killbox as well?

The killbox has 3 different turrets covering the open field. Ergo sappers will avoid it if they can. The turret north of the killbox is part of the general layer of turret defenses around the entire perimeter of the base, it's not specific to the killbox.

There's only one gap in the turret coverage around the perimeter, and that's the winding path full of spike traps that's the northern part of the killbox. Since sappers think that way is "safe" they'll walk through it, trying to get to the interior of the base.

Originally posted by cannenses:

I do think I have superior fighting team (weapons, skills, DPS, tactics, etc.). So, any fool who comes into my map is converted to food for my animals or fodder for my smelter. I don't wait for their mortars to drop. I don't wait for them to "wake up". I don't care what they have because it makes no diff.

A large part of having a wall is preventing the raiders from damaging your stuff. You don't necessarily need the support of lots of turrets and pre-built cover to win. But if you don't have a curtain wall, they're likely to damage things before you can kill them. Particularly if you get one of those "attacking from multiple directions" raids where there are two groups assaulting from opposite sides of the map.

Beyond that, open field combat always ends with casualties. Even if you've got an overwhelming tech advantage, i.e. charge rifles and power armor vs. primitives with bows and spears, you can't kill them all before they get in range, and somebody's going to get stabbed in the thigh.

Raiders aren't your only attackers. Insects and manhunter packs come in large numbers and will overwhelm your colonists at melee range if you meet them in the open field. Melee blocking with gunners behind requires a prepared position, it's not something you can do in the trees. Forcing them through a funnel with spike traps both cuts down their numbers at no risk and forces them to come at you in a column instead of a wide wave.

Some things require a field assault, of course. Like mechanoid ships. Someone always gets hurt in those combats, though.

[Cannenses]

Lol, @gussmed - You're the first one to comment on my broadside. Good job.

Allow me, Mr Invincible wanna-be, to discuss these points:

I agree with you as a matter of fact on a basic level - defend my stuff, multiple directions, casualties ("stabbed in the thigh"), manhunters & insects ... sure, that's the game (events).

On damaging my stuff -- I can afford them blowing my plasteel turrets, auto-cannons, etc. I have so many, I stopped counting. Truth is I want them to, I have pawns losing their constructor skills because of lack of construction. When they engage my turrets and other gear, that's exactly what I want. The wait-period for them to play peek-a-boo with turrets is fun to watch. We unload on them after they've fought my tables and turrets. Or chicken and sheep in the last mech event. Whatever tickles their fancy.

Multiple directions -- Two groups assaulting? From opposite directions? Nope. Doesn't happen that way for my open-plan bases. I wonder if you've seen 6 different mech drops at the same time, usually 2 mechs per location. I have and its fun. They died. AI then does that again, with another 6 different locations, they died too .... hmm, maybe I am lucky? But maybe, perhaps, the idea has always been for AI to keep guessing which part of my map is the weak vs strong points. Here's the relevant part: I have no walls to protect me, so I have never fought in one location, for all mechs to converge at "from opposite directions". Every single fight is different. A multi-angled fight is when I find out whether I truly know my own map as well as I think I do.

Manhunters and insects - For manhunters, the largest I've seen was a 20-bear crew of critters. For insects, a bit more, I think I counted 35 once. I have my own "manhunter" team of Thrumbos, Megasloths, Rhinos, Grizzlies, Panthers, Wolves, ... etc. Except my manhunters are backed-up with ranged firearm and plasteel swords.

Casualties - That's the easiest part of a fight. Glittermeds for pawns and selected predators and meds for the others, mostly industrial. They get hurt. They get patched up. That's all. No one dies on my team.

-----

I play open-plan bases and do multiple long-range mining in order to operate this way. This season, Spring 5510, I have 8 mines to do - plasteel, jade, gold, uranium ... the works. The base fights are not the fun part because fight's over before I know it. My med team, who are usually not involved in any base fights, then get their turn. The logistics of trade caravans, mining, quests -- that's the real mind-bender. If I get bored with late-game events, I just begin another colony, another 20-pawn group with 150 animals ... just in another biome. But 2 colonies is enough for me, I think I'm drinking too much coffee having to calculate weight/distance/time for these sojourns.

But, yes, I agree with you. Walls do protect. If you need protection. :-)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2044506558

[Raymond]

I am looking at the screenshot of your base, it seem like you miss understood the very definition of a killbox. Idk what the other guys have told you but killbox is just A very fortified FREE entrance. Which mean that your colony only need ONE killbox that overlooking the only entrance into your colony. Having multiple killboxes will make raiders to spread out and do more damage than they should, or start hitting the walls. The entrance should not have any obstacle, such as a closed door, to prevent their passage into your base other than your firing squad. Finally, in order for a killbox to work, there need to be SOME baits, preferably high value buildings that built with components. You will need a lot of these buildings, AI raiders will switch to another bait( even if this bait will require them to go through 5 layers of steel walls) if there are already too many raiders going after it. This is why they will sometime attacking your wall.

[Raymond]

Originally posted by cannenses:

But, yes, I agree with you. Walls do protect. If you need protection. :-)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2044506558

truth to be told, I was quite impressed when I heard you were fighting on the open with almost no defense, and the way you talked about, I almost thought you are Kensei from They are Billion.
But you must have been mistaken somewhere right? You memory must have fooled you somewhere. I mean a 10 years colony with those wealth and population couldn't still be getting manhunter pack from Randy. The game should have disable manhunter pack after a certain point. And where is the epic lag inducing Randy all-time favorite raid of 400 scythers/lancers and 80 centipedes? Why are you fighting 4 scythers and 2 lancers (I can't even count the cent because my snipers eat them for breakfast)? It is so small and so cute I am totally confused. You must have broke the game somehow because not even on builder mode Randy is this pathetic. I don't even need to wait for 1 in game year before my tribe start getting raids like this, or maybe I must have misunderstood something.

That aside, I am sure you have epic stories to share of your heroic colony.