Are sentry guns OP!?

[Dire]

Sentry guns seem to be a little to overpowered.



Comparing sentry guns to mortars sentry guns don't need ammo, raiders will attack sentry guns if they are infront of your coloniest so sniper+sentry combo while I can have someone heal my sentry gun while it's being attacked and my sentry guns also have 8O+ defence (Sandbags+Roof cover bonus)


Point being.....

I think sentry guns are very (Extremely) realible and should be nerfed by -

One) Make sentry guns only work if manned.

Two) Make sentry guns require ammo like mortars

Three) cancel action of *repair* when the sentry gun is being manned.

Four) Decrease accuracy of sentry guns when behind a sandbag.

Five) Make sentry guns cost more material.



If any modders out there could do this would be much appreciated!


Also comment on what you think about this, I would like to see if anyone agrees/disagrees that sentry guns are op and should be nerfed by the following.

[Astasia]

Publicado originalmente por grapplehoeker:

I'm sorry but I have to disagree.
I'm all for using my colonists to defend but in the early to mid game when colonists are in short supply, then I have found that you can rely on turret formations to be very effective even without a killbox or funnel.
I like this one for example as it just looks cool and is very functional too. I like open area defending and this one ensures that there are at least 12 turrets facing in every direction. They are also plasteel turrets, not steel (or at least they're steel at first and then upgraded asap to plasteel when possible = mechanoid farming). This both ensures less broken turrets and 3x as durable than steel and less flamable so they will keep shooting for longer.
Most of the time this is all I need to repel or wipeout incoming raids and it's so effective I've even allowed my colonists to carry on working during a raid with the surety that the Spider will do it's job. Later in the game the colonists will participate for sure and I can man 3 shooters per door within the spiders body. It's very efficient.

You have done nothing to dissuade me from my opinion. That is a lot of resources dumped into early game defense that in my experience might stop raider waves 4 and 5 and nothing else. You also have the issue of a single sniper or mechanoid being able to wipe out that entire contraption from outside of turret range.

Publicado originalmente por Kinja:

Just because people can cheese the poor AI with killboxes doesn't mean sentry guns are OP. What you should be asking instead is for better raider AI. Ask for AI that instead of running like an idiot to the nearest opening(which always leads to your defences) goes around and breaks your wall to get at your power and kill any automated defences you might have up, AI that cuts power cables, etc.

That really doesn't need to happen, and if it does there would likely be just as easy a way to exploit it. IE dummy batteries and wires. "AI" is currently a myth, it's always going to be dumb, it's always going to have easily exploitable patterns. I am happy with the current level of challenge with the AI, it depends on overwelming numbers instead of intelligent tactics which I find satisfying.

[grapplehoeker]

Publicado originalmente por Astasia:

You have done nothing to dissuade me from my opinion. That is a lot of resources dumped into early game defense that in my experience might stop raider waves 4 and 5 and nothing else. You also have the issue of a single sniper or mechanoid being able to wipe out that entire contraption from outside of turret range.

Heh, it was never my intention to dissuade you.
I was just illustrating that a well constructed layout of turrets can be very effective. Once upgraded to plasteel and base perimeter at the outermost range of the turrets has been fitted out with plasteel deadfall traps at the entry points, this layout will remain effective all of the way to the end game.
At least as far as Cassandra Intense, in my experience.
I should stress that as effective as they are, my best defense will always be my mobile colonists themselves with appropriate weapon loadout for whatever the threat. So, in the case of snipers or mechanoids, I wouldn't just sit there and watch them disable the turrets. The turrets would become decoys in that situation and my mobile force would be better able to eradicate them.

[Nemund]

I'm all for manual gun emplacements where you can put any gun you want on an emplacement that acts like a wall, and it then becomes more accurate & gains a few range to reflect height (but obviously can't be moved). I'd love that. They obviously also would require no power then so you wouldn't have to run cables.

But the improvised sentry turrets are actually far too weak mid game, not too strong.
More depth to the turret research tree would make it a lot easier to balance them all of course. (Like those turret mods add nicely)

[Quicksilver]

Even the tribals can outrange them with the vanilla greatbow so they're pretty useless unless the AI derps. They're more for giving you a minimum amount of defensive presence in an area, such as at night when most of your colony is sleeping. If you have the mats to make 10 of them in plasteel and nest them, you basically could be off the planet already, so thats more a vanity project for lulz.

[BOYCOTT]

Publicado originalmente por Kinja:

Just because people can cheese the poor AI with killboxes doesn't mean sentry guns are OP. What you should be asking instead is for better raider AI. Ask for AI that instead of running like an idiot to the nearest opening(which always leads to your defences) goes around and breaks your wall to get at your power and kill any automated defences you might have up, AI that cuts power cables, etc.

sappers were added a long time ago to try and tunnel into your base, someone else pointed it out, you can create dummy systems to trick those with varying degress of success.

also, how would an enemy magically know your base's weakpoints if it's not a return visit? maybe they never made it inside or near your power generation.

[Grishnerf]

Publicado originalmente por Quicksilver:

Even the tribals can outrange them with the vanilla greatbow so they're pretty useless unless the AI derps. They're more for giving you a minimum amount of defensive presence in an area, such as at night when most of your colony is sleeping. If you have the mats to make 10 of them in plasteel and nest them, you basically could be off the planet already, so thats more a vanity project for lulz.

turrets alone are not op, yes.
they cant kill a 50+ manhunterpack alone.

but this is never what the op said.
most people dont even get the point.


it is about turrets + pawns behind using turrets as dmg shield/dmg sponge.
instead of your pawns taking dmg you just sacrifice 2-3 turrets each raid (40-50 tribals +) and killl everything from beind it with your soldiers.
instead of your pawns missing an eye, a limb or headhsot to the brain, noo only the towers take dmg , cause of AI/aggro abusage and you only lose some metal.
rebuild it wait for next attack.

thats how they are used atm:

as aggro towers that take dmg instead of your pawns, not as dmg dealing towers that can kill enemies alone. lul
:D

[BOYCOTT]

Publicado originalmente por GRISH.NERF:

turrets alone are not op, yes.
they cant kill a 50+ manhunterpack alone.

but this is never what the op said.
most people dont even get the point.


it is about turrets + pawns behind using turrets as dmg shield/dmg sponge.
instead of your pawns taking dmg you just sacrifice 2-3 turrets each raid (40-50 tribals +) and killl everything from beind it with your soldiers.
instead of your pawns missing an eye, a limb or headhsot to the brain, noo only the towers take dmg , cause of AI/aggro abusage and you only lose some metal.
rebuild it wait for next attack.

thats how they are used atm:

as aggro towers that take dmg instead of your pawns, not as dmg dealing towers that can kill enemies alone. lul
:D

you know, there's these things called mods that actually do a lot of what he wants anyway? might be time to look into it.

[Grishnerf]

a really? tell me more about it, those so called mods, is it something to eat?


edit: srs, if you would have read all, you would know that i play with no turrets at all cause it is more fun to micro in urban warfare.
so recommending me a mod for "manned" towers that need ammunition is not the best thing to do. :D

[Quicksilver]

Publicado originalmente por GRISH.NERF:

Publicado originalmente por Quicksilver:

Even the tribals can outrange them with the vanilla greatbow so they're pretty useless unless the AI derps. They're more for giving you a minimum amount of defensive presence in an area, such as at night when most of your colony is sleeping. If you have the mats to make 10 of them in plasteel and nest them, you basically could be off the planet already, so thats more a vanity project for lulz.

turrets alone are not op, yes.
they cant kill a 50+ manhunterpack alone.

but this is never what the op said.
most people dont even get the point.


it is about turrets + pawns behind using turrets as dmg shield/dmg sponge.
instead of your pawns taking dmg you just sacrifice 2-3 turrets each raid (40-50 tribals +) and killl everything from beind it with your soldiers.
instead of your pawns missing an eye, a limb or headhsot to the brain, noo only the towers take dmg , cause of AI/aggro abusage and you only lose some metal.
rebuild it wait for next attack.

thats how they are used atm:

as aggro towers that take dmg instead of your pawns, not as dmg dealing towers that can kill enemies alone. lul
:D

You can achieve the same thing with a bunch of chicks. You will literally have replaced them before the raid is over, and you can still butcher the corpses for nuggets.

[BOYCOTT]

Publicado originalmente por GRISH.NERF:

a really? tell me more about it, those so called mods, is it something to eat?


edit: srs, if you would have read all, you would know that i play with no turrets at all cause it is more fun to micro in urban warfare.
so recommending me a mod for "manned" towers that need ammunition is not the best thing to do. :D

you're not very smart, are you? no one's gonna force you to use towers if you don't want to, but your changes are a horrible idea for vanilla.

carefully thought out planning always wins in rimworld if executed properly, stop crying about it.

[Grishnerf]

Publicado originalmente por Quicksilver:

You can achieve the same thing with a bunch of chicks. You will literally have replaced them before the raid is over, and you can still butcher the corpses for nuggets.

yeah ::D many ways of doing stuff.
but you have to do much more work for this then just click on turret, click on ground.
you have to setup zones, need to use the animal tab etc..

[Grishnerf]

Publicado originalmente por Too-DAMN-Much:

you're not very smart, are you? no one's gonna force you to use towers if you don't want to, but your changes are a horrible idea for vanilla.

carefully thought out planning always wins in rimworld if executed properly, stop crying about it.

insulting me, nice job dude! dont seem to be that smart either (pun intended)

read the first post from the op again. he has adifferent name than me. thats not my suggestions at all!
i just repeated them to you, cause you said that i should check them out in the workshop.
but thats not my style to play.

my suggestion was just about making them double the price, but if you would have read the whole thread carefully, you would have known.



crying LUL

[Iconoclast]

In an attempt to stymie the ♥♥♥♥-posting from both sides, there are certain things I agree with in your post OP. First and foremost is when your colony gets to the mils in terms of wealth, those turrets aren't much but a minor inconvenience to attackers(assuming attackers are higher than tribal). You have to rely on explosives and end-game tech to wipe in groups, and micro pretty hard to survive it. Even more so if you pull a Randy Extreme and get three raids at once.

The rounds idea for the turrets is interesting, but their relatively low damage output coupled with limited ammunition would make them entirely useless. At the moment, they fill a nice niche for beginning to mid, but I don't think anyone is relying on them come year 5+. Further, with the addition of ammunition, we're now adding another micro/macro item for all ranged colonists, which could very well make early/mid game survivability a headache, at least.

In much the same way, a ranged debuff from sandbags also must go both ways, which makes sandbags suddenly pointless, as no one is going to sacrifice accuracy for longevity. They cancel each other out, so you're just dropping steel for funsies at that point.

Perhaps a central control for all turrets within a 10*10 area that one pawn controls. I could understand that so there are further requirements I guess. But by and far, it's pawns with tech that saves from a raid in late game. Turrets are little more than a resource dump at a certain wealth stage.

[Astasia]

Publicado originalmente por GRISH.NERF:

most people dont even get the point.


it is about turrets + pawns behind using turrets as dmg shield/dmg sponge.
instead of your pawns taking dmg you just sacrifice 2-3 turrets each raid (40-50 tribals +) and killl everything from beind it with your soldiers.
instead of your pawns missing an eye, a limb or headhsot to the brain, noo only the towers take dmg , cause of AI/aggro abusage and you only lose some metal.
rebuild it wait for next attack.

thats how they are used atm:

as aggro towers that take dmg instead of your pawns, not as dmg dealing towers that can kill enemies alone. lul
:D

Everyone here is aware of using turrets as dummies, and most of us mentioned it. Nobody has missed the point. In fact of all the turret strategies I can think of, standing behind a turret is the worst one. There will be stray bullets that can hit you, and the turret is going to explode. Enemies are going to target the turrets first regardless of where your colonists are, so you place the turret in one location and have your colonists stand somewhere else away from the danger and just take free shots. That's not OP because it's a ridiculous waste of resources. Turrets die very fast, you lose a lot of the resource put into them, you are basically paying a large cost in steel every single raid, and against tribals you get almost nothing back unless you get lucky with a gold club or something.

Try this instead, equip a melee character with a shield, have them stand in a door with a sandbag in front of it, have 2-3 ranged characters behind them. When the shield gets low retreat back behind the door until it recharges. Have multiples of these set up. It's essentially the same thing you and the OP are suggesting but you lose no resources.

[Iconoclast]

@Astasia That's brilliant