On weapon "progression"

[RaptorMother]

One thing that has always kinda baffled me is the "progression" of armours and weapons once you start getting regular raids.

Basically, it doesn't really matter what tech level you start in, because after a few raids, you will have HMGs and sniper rifles plenty. Researching guns doesn't really seem to make sense, since there is such a plentiful supply and, unlike clothing, it doesn't really matter if their previous owner died.

But what if it was different? What if you couldn't actually use those guns until you researched them? What if there was more of a "progression tree", going from throwing weapons, to bows, to flintlock, to world war tech, to modern weapons, to energy?

(additionally, is there a mod that enforces something like this already?)

What do you all think? Do you like your tribes running around with rocket launchers instead?

[coopnt]

I use this mod. Seems close to what you are looking for.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2005456121

[RaptorMother]

Thank you, however, that mod only changes the tech tree. Drops and shops still are the same, which is the main thing I was pondering on

[coopnt]

I also use this one, which makes a distinction between looted and/or 'used' weapons vs ones freshly crafted by your colonists.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1386385125


Also, with WeaponTech as the only weapon-adding mod enabled (I'm not using Vanilla Weapons Expanded etc.), I find that raiders' weapons are decently balanced so as to give you an incentive to make your own (raids, if they even have guns at all, have a mishmosh of crappy junk at my current colony wealth level, whereas I already have colonists crafting my own assault rifles).

edit: WeaponTech replaces the vanilla weapons, not just adjusts the researches. That's why it affects spawning in raids and shops too.

[coopnt]

Basically, I have the same thinking as you do (vanilla game gives no reason to ever make your own weapons, balance-wise) and using these mods has helped me tailor the gameplay to my liking somewhat.

The other thing I might suggest, though I don't use it myself, is some sort of an ammunition-requirement mod. That way, even if you capture powerful weapons from raiders, you can't really use them much without having the tech and crafting to make your own ammo for them. This seems a bit more of an immersive approach vs flat-out disallowing pawns from using 'too-advanced' weapons, imo.

[Astasia]

Originally posted by Top Lez:

Basically, it doesn't really matter what tech level you start in, because after a few raids, you will have HMGs and sniper rifles plenty. Researching guns doesn't really seem to make sense, since there is such a plentiful supply and, unlike clothing, it doesn't really matter if their previous owner died.

The difference between a normal/good gun and a legendary is absolutely massive. For some weapons it's like a +200% effective DPS boost, factoring in the accuracy bonuses, the armor penetration, and the raw damage bump. A "normal" assault rifle is a piece of junk compared to a legendary, the motivation to research and craft these weapons is to get some that don't suck.

[Edmund Greyfox]

To me it makes total sense the way it is. There are lots of places in the world where there isn't a gun factory or anyone local that knows exactly how to build a modern gun, but that doesn't mean they don't know how to load and fire one that they bought from some other country.

[Gamefever]

Medieval Times and Vanilla Expanded Medieval lock you in at a tech level and all NPC factions.
Right now you have to roll back to V1.0 to play them but they can be fun for a while.

What might be interesting is to have a faction tech level unlock as the player progresses through the tech tree....Like if you unlock Medieval the other tribes start to catch up in time, would be interesting.

[RaptorMother]

Originally posted by Astasia:

The difference between a normal/good gun and a legendary is absolutely massive. For some weapons it's like a +200% effective DPS boost, factoring in the accuracy bonuses, the armor penetration, and the raw damage bump. A "normal" assault rifle is a piece of junk compared to a legendary, the motivation to research and craft these weapons is to get some that don't suck.

I understand this. Thematically though, it still looks odd, at least to me, to have a tribe with a charge rifle, even if it's an awful one.

Originally posted by Coopnt:

Basically, I have the same thinking as you do (vanilla game gives no reason to ever make your own weapons, balance-wise) and using these mods has helped me tailor the gameplay to my liking somewhat.

The other thing I might suggest, though I don't use it myself, is some sort of an ammunition-requirement mod. That way, even if you capture powerful weapons from raiders, you can't really use them much without having the tech and crafting to make your own ammo for them. This seems a bit more of an immersive approach vs flat-out disallowing pawns from using 'too-advanced' weapons, imo.

Bot of those look like very promising prospects. Ammunition seems like an interesting idea, though it's a fine line between adding an interesting gate to pass, and just the annoyance of yet another crafting recipe to keep topped up. And I'll have to play around with a tribe and just weapon tiers, because the way you described it work, actually sound really interesting

Originally posted by Gamefever:

Medieval Times and Vanilla Expanded Medieval lock you in at a tech level and all NPC factions.
Right now you have to roll back to V1.0 to play them but they can be fun for a while.

What might be interesting is to have a faction tech level unlock as the player progresses through the tech tree....Like if you unlock Medieval the other tribes start to catch up in time, would be interesting.

That's kind of the thing I was thinking too. Does it become too much Civilization then, though? Although, is that necessarily a bad thing? The thought of the entire planet progressing onward sound really interesting

Originally posted by bruce_swope:

To me it makes total sense the way it is. There are lots of places in the world where there isn't a gun factory or anyone local that knows exactly how to build a modern gun, but that doesn't mean they don't know how to load and fire one that they bought from some other country.

I understand what you say, and I've played like that countless of times! I just wish there was a different way, one that woul make it feel like you're actually progressing through the tiers, rather than stumbling upon them

[Hoki]

i prefer disabling specific loot via mods. since i also use 'Ammunition' in addition i dont have any use for industrial or spacer tech unless i already reached said techlevel. personally i dont see the problem in just having access to raider weapons but magically having an infinite ammount of ammo or knowing how to create is enabling lower techlevel to use those weapons as long as you want.

[Baked.Bread]

If it's theme yer worried about then all ya need is a little rp on yer end. Next time yer tribe finds something they haven't researched have em act like a group of barely not monkeys do. Maybe they leave ballistics alone or only as melee weapons. Maybe they take the charge rifle and enshrine it. The limit is yer imagination.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Top Lez:

...What do you all think? Do you like your tribes running around with rocket launchers instead?

Weapon Quality matters.

If you are comfortable leaving your weapon choices to RNG, then you don't need to worry about researching/crafting weapons.

Fool-proof "killzone" players might not really feel their missing weapon-quality issues very much. They've got Turrets and Traps and IEDs, so maybe their pawns don't really get to fire their weapons very often?

I always research and craft weapons, keeping up crafting until I have a good selection of good quality weapons. But, I also rarely have a foolproof "killzone," preferring a pillbox area that may be assisted by turrets, but one that doesn't let me sleep through raids.